Strange views for a Catholic.

[Scriptorium]

All who are saved are saved by the GRACE of Christ alone, period, the end. He gave us a Church with Her Sacraments, and gave us the commandments to love God, love our neighbor, and to spread the Good News.

I believe God is Good and is Love Itself, that He desires for us all to be with Him, and that He is Just.  That's all I have to know, myself. I don't need to know who is saved or not, who is saved -- by the Grace of Christ alone -- IN SPITE OF (not because of) being in another religion or never having heard His Name, what exactly defines "invincible ignorance," etc. All those "algorithms of salvation" are up to Him. But I do have the sense that many of my co-religionists treat the Gospel as a bat to beat people with rather than the Good News that is to be shared out of faith, hope, and charity -- and it's to be shared because we are commanded to share it, and because sharing it would lead to the greatest peace we could have this side of Heaven. And, worse, many of my co-religionists treat the Gospel as a brownie point or something, as something they've "got" that others don't, as something that makes them better than and smarter than others. I mean, there is, in fact, "an other," but they are to be pitied, loved, and brought in to the Church, not despised. It's sad to me that there's often a lot of name-calling and finger-pointing rather than preaching (using PRUDENCE and following St. Francis's words on the matter), setting an example, and making the other the focus of charity. There's a definite time to fight (e.g., when willful igorance, lies, and out-and-out hatred are coming our way), but even then, if love is lost, there's nothing we're really fighting for.

Yes, I wonder if people don't realize that the big question is not how they are going to be saved, but how we are going to be saved. We're the one's who have the HUGE weight of rising to the occasion of responding to these amazing graces with amazing correspondence. We're hardly signed, sealed, and delivered, whereas the ignorance of some people in the world relieves them in the eyes of Christ of some responsibility. And we tend to think that grace is more than a free gift. If God is so amazing to give me such free gifts, knowing what I know about this sinner, then I'll be surprised I am in heaven. If I can't lock in myself for sure, even with the confidence of the sacraments, then where do I have ground to pontificate about the eternal fate of people I don't even know. With some it isn't about defending the Church as the sole ark of salvation, but that they're part of the elite club of the elect. Where was that part of the Bible when Christ said He did not know them?

[Pilgrim]

Thank you, VoxC and Scriptorium, for these comments.

[charlesh]

Speak of the devil! great article on this very topic posted today at the remnant: http://www.remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2012-0415-mjm-dawkins-pell.htm

btw, I think this is a pretty important topic. I think the name-calling was at a minimum, and of course we should all try to save our own souls and be charitable, but it's important to know the truth so that we can conform our minds to it. That also helps us to be alert when somebody pretending to speak in Christ's name is actually leading us to hell.

Look at all the damage from public scandal and the confusion it causes--the scattering of the sheep. Every time some modernist conservative-in-reputation-only prelate like Cardinal Pell gets up in front of the world and denies basic articles of the faith, more Protestants, atheists, etc. are convinced Catholicism is a sham because they know we're contradicting ourselves. Cardinal Pell said atheists go to heaven, and the world was stunned because even they know we're not supposed to believe that. Every time the John Pauls and Mother Teresas say that the goal of the Catholic Church is to make the Muslim a better Muslim, a Jew a better Jew--that practicing their own religion well is answering the call of Christ--then its a big public display that the Catholic Church is a joke.

Also, it's a warning to us that our churches are still occupied by modernists and there's still a grave need for traditional chapels where the whole faith is taught, all 7 traditional sacraments are available, and Catholic life is possible.

[ResiduumRevertetur]

I'm mostly concerned with the way this affects my own family and other fallen away Catholics, not necessarily some lost tribe who's never heard the Gospel.

Here's the thing, nearly my whole family is fallen away and it basically started with my mother's catechism somewhere in the late sixties when, after 40 years of being Catholic and a decade of Catholic schools, she was told the equivalent of Mother Teresa's "better Muslim" axiom. She was taught that "as long as you go somewhere or believe something, you're a-ok." Now she doesn't recognize the Church as any special type of "path", but just one path (you're okay, I'm okay) and that's basically backed up to her by the Fullness statement. If you want "the Fullness" then come on in. If it doesn't do it for you, then just follow your conscience, Jiminy Cricket style. So she knows she should, but has been told she doesn't have to. Sometimes people need to be told they have to, or else we wouldn't need precepts. But all these statements really boil down to, You should, but no, you don't have to, if there's another way for you out there, go find it. This same situation is happening with her best friend whose children have all fallen away as well (including my best friend). It's epidemic.

I don't know what to do with all that but pray for her and the rest of my family and all fallen away Catholics. If someone could help me, I'd eternally appreciate it.

[TrentCath]

I'm mostly concerned with the way this affects my own family and other fallen away Catholics, not necessarily some lost tribe who's never heard the Gospel.

Here's the thing, nearly my whole family is fallen away and it basically started with my mother's catechism somewhere in the late sixties when, after 40 years of being Catholic and a decade of Catholic schools, she was told the equivalent of Mother Teresa's "better Muslim" axiom. She was taught that "as long as you go somewhere or believe something, you're a-ok." Now she doesn't recognize the Church as any special type of "path", but just one path (you're okay, I'm okay) and that's basically backed up to her by the Fullness statement. If you want "the Fullness" then come on in. If it doesn't do it for you, then just follow your conscience, Jiminy Cricket style. So she knows she should, but has been told she doesn't have to. Sometimes people need to be told they have to, or else we wouldn't need precepts. But all these statements really boil down to, You should, but no, you don't have to, if there's another way for you out there, go find it. This same situation is happening with her best friend whose children have all fallen away as well (including my best friend). It's epidemic.

I don't know what to do with all that but pray for her and the rest of my family and all fallen away Catholics. If someone could help me, I'd eternally appreciate it.

I'm pretty sure prayer is the only solution, my mother is now an 'evangelical protestant' so I'm in a worse kind of situation, but really if there willing to drop their entire faith on the basis of a catechism I don't think any amount of documents will persuade them, prayer and a pious life are the only tools that would be effective.

[TrentCath]

If following the natural law saved anyone, then the Christian faith and the sacrifice of Christ would be irrelevant.

They are not saved by following the natural law - such people, if saved, would still be saved by Christ's sacrifice.

But in ignorance of Christ. In other words, they would be saved without having faith.

If this isn't heretical, nothing is.

The Church teaches it, so unless we want to accuse several popes and theologians of heresy, I suggest you back down

[Vetus Ordo]

If following the natural law saved anyone, then the Christian faith and the sacrifice of Christ would be irrelevant.

They are not saved by following the natural law - such people, if saved, would still be saved by Christ's sacrifice.

But in ignorance of Christ. In other words, they would be saved without having faith.

If this isn't heretical, nothing is.

The Church teaches it, so unless we want to accuse several popes and theologians of heresy, I suggest you back down

I'll accuse anyone who "teaches" that people are saved in ignorance of Christ of heresy. That's a basic denial of the gospel.

[Scriptorium]

Nobody is saved in ignorance of anything. Ignorance is a privation, not a positive. Salvation is Christ's free gift. Ignorance is a matter in which certain people are not held culpable for certain things. Anyone saved is saved by Christ. If any one of these ignorant people are saved, they are saved by Christ, and He does not hold these people bound to certain obligations they were never aware of.

[Vetus Ordo]

Nobody is saved in ignorance of anything. Ignorance is a privation, not a positive. Salvation is Christ's free gift. Ignorance is a matter in which certain people are not held culpable for certain things. Anyone saved is saved by Christ. If any one of these ignorant people are saved, they are saved by Christ, and He does not hold these people bound to certain obligations they were never aware of.

People can't be saved without actual faith in Christ.

It's no longer the membership in the Church that is destroyed by this fantasy, it's also the Christian faith itself. The "invincibly ignorant" may not be culpable for the sin of infidelity, but they're certainly culpable for original and actual sin.

[TrentCath]

If following the natural law saved anyone, then the Christian faith and the sacrifice of Christ would be irrelevant.

They are not saved by following the natural law - such people, if saved, would still be saved by Christ's sacrifice.

But in ignorance of Christ. In other words, they would be saved without having faith.

If this isn't heretical, nothing is.

The Church teaches it, so unless we want to accuse several popes and theologians of heresy, I suggest you back down

I'll accuse anyone who "teaches" that people are saved in ignorance of Christ of heresy. That's a basic denial of the gospel.

You go vetus! Remind me again are you a catholic or a protestant?