Scriptorium
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« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2012, 02:08:PM » |
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It's no longer the membership in the Church that is destroyed by this fantasy, it's also the Christian faith itself. The "invincibly ignorant" may not be culpable for the sin of infidelity, but they're certainly culpable for original and actual sin.
Can someone have faith in Christ without knowing Him as "Christ", but simply as "God"? |
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Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the Tree of Life and enter the city through its gates.
~ Rv 22:12-14
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Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2012, 04:29:PM » |
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It's no longer the membership in the Church that is destroyed by this fantasy, it's also the Christian faith itself. The "invincibly ignorant" may not be culpable for the sin of infidelity, but they're certainly culpable for original and actual sin.
Can someone have faith in Christ without knowing Him as "Christ", but simply as "God"? That's not faith in Christ, that's just deism. By that line of reasoning, Muslims have faith in Christ because they believe in Allah. That's not the faith that saves. |
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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Vetus Ordo
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« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2012, 04:30:PM » |
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You go vetus! Remind me again are you a catholic or a protestant?  Being able to think with one's head = protestant. |
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"THE LORD is my light and my salvation, whom shall I fear? The Lord is the protector of my life: of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 26:1)
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." — Clement, bishop of Rome
"I love truth," says he, "and not sects. I am sometimes a peripatetic, a stoic, or an academician, and often none of them; but—always a Christian. To philosophise is to love wisdom; and the true wisdom is Jesus Christ. Let us read the historians, the poets, and the philosophers; but let us have in our hearts the gospel of Jesus Christ, in which alone is perfect wisdom and perfect happiness." — Petrarch
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TrentCath
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« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2012, 04:39:PM » |
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You go vetus! Remind me again are you a catholic or a protestant? Being able to think with one's head = protestant. Saying that even if popes said it they're heretics =protestant claiming its thinking with ones head = martin luthers justification |
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Scriptorium
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« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2012, 04:44:PM » |
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Can someone have faith in Christ without knowing Him as "Christ", but simply as "God"?
That's not faith in Christ, that's just deism. By that line of reasoning, Muslims have faith in Christ because they believe in Allah. That's not the faith that saves. You cite examples of positive denials of Christ. Deism and Islam are a far cry from someone in ignorance believing everything they know about God, but lacking the revelation of Christ in the Trinity. Christ is part of revelation. If someone is not given the revelation, then they would only know Him in His unity with the Father, which is commonly called "God". So I ask again, can someone have faith in Christ without knowing Him as "Christ", but simply as "God"? |
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:30:PM by Scriptorium »
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Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the Tree of Life and enter the city through its gates.
~ Rv 22:12-14
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Norbert
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« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2012, 05:09:PM » |
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If following the natural law saved anyone, then the Christian faith and the sacrifice of Christ would be irrelevant.
They are not saved by following the natural law - such people, if saved, would still be saved by Christ's sacrifice. But in ignorance of Christ. In other words, they would be saved without having faith. If this isn't heretical, nothing is. The Church teaches it, so unless we want to accuse several popes and theologians of heresy, I suggest you back downI'll accuse anyone who "teaches" that people are saved in ignorance of Christ of heresy. That's a basic denial of the gospel. You go vetus! Remind me again are you a catholic or a protestant? Wow. You go, Trent Cath. Ok. So....faith isn't necessary for salvation...knowledge of Christ isn't necessary for salvation...believing specific things isn't necessary for salvation... Why are we opposed to this "Vatican II" thing again? |
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Mithrandylan
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Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.
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« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2012, 05:14:PM » |
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If following the natural law saved anyone, then the Christian faith and the sacrifice of Christ would be irrelevant.
They are not saved by following the natural law - such people, if saved, would still be saved by Christ's sacrifice. But in ignorance of Christ. In other words, they would be saved without having faith. If this isn't heretical, nothing is. The Church teaches it, so unless we want to accuse several popes and theologians of heresy, I suggest you back downI'll accuse anyone who "teaches" that people are saved in ignorance of Christ of heresy. That's a basic denial of the gospel. You go vetus! Remind me again are you a catholic or a protestant? Wow. You go, Trent Cath. Ok. So....faith isn't necessary for salvation...knowledge of Christ isn't necessary for salvation...believing specific things isn't necessary for salvation... Why are we opposed to this "Vatican II" thing again? I'm not sure if extraordinary instances negate the necessity of any particular thing. |
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Norbert
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« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2012, 05:18:PM » |
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If following the natural law saved anyone, then the Christian faith and the sacrifice of Christ would be irrelevant.
They are not saved by following the natural law - such people, if saved, would still be saved by Christ's sacrifice. But in ignorance of Christ. In other words, they would be saved without having faith. If this isn't heretical, nothing is. The Church teaches it, so unless we want to accuse several popes and theologians of heresy, I suggest you back downI'll accuse anyone who "teaches" that people are saved in ignorance of Christ of heresy. That's a basic denial of the gospel. You go vetus! Remind me again are you a catholic or a protestant? Wow. You go, Trent Cath. Ok. So....faith isn't necessary for salvation...knowledge of Christ isn't necessary for salvation...believing specific things isn't necessary for salvation... Why are we opposed to this "Vatican II" thing again? I'm not sure if extraordinary instances negate the necessity of any particular thing. I'm not sure if that conforms to the definition of the English word "necessary". |
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Scriptorium
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« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2012, 05:35:PM » |
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I'm not sure if extraordinary instances negate the necessity of any particular thing.
I'm not sure if that conforms to the definition of the English word "necessary". One also wonders if salvation is by (unmerited) grace through faith and good works, or a matter of simply fulfilling certain ritualistic requirements. Is the correspondence we have to grace one of doing A B and C, or rather loving God with our whole hearts, souls, strength, and minds? He who loved much had much forgiven. The ignorance is not a lack of love, but a lack of information. HUGE difference! |
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:38:PM by Scriptorium »
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Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the Tree of Life and enter the city through its gates.
~ Rv 22:12-14
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TrentCath
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« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2012, 05:47:PM » |
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Wow. You go, Trent Cath.
Ok. So....faith isn't necessary for salvation...knowledge of Christ isn't necessary for salvation...believing specific things isn't necessary for salvation...
Why are we opposed to this "Vatican II" thing again?
' Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.' Pope Pius IX, on the promotion of false doctrinesGuess he was a supporter of Vatican 2 hmmm? Oh and so was Ven. Pope Pius XII who would have know?! ' 103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly.[194] Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ"[195] and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation.[196] For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love.[197] Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.
104. Though We desire this unceasing prayer to rise to God from the whole Mystical Body in common, that all the straying sheep may hasten to enter the one fold of Jesus Christ, yet We recognize that this must be done of their own free will; for no one believes unless he wills to believe.[198] Hence they are most certainly not genuine Christians[199] who against their belief are forced to go into a church, to approach the altar and to receive the Sacraments; for the "faith without which it is impossible to please God"[200] is an entirely free "submission of intellect and will."[201] Therefore, whenever it happens, despite the constant teaching of this Apostolic See,[202] that anyone is compelled to embrace the Catholic faith against his will, Our sense of duty demands that We condemn the act. For men must be effectively drawn to the truth by the Father of light through the spirit of His beloved Son, because, endowed as they are with free will, they can misuse their freedom under the impulse of mental agitation and base desires. Unfortunately many are still wandering far from the Catholic truth, being unwilling to follow the inspirations of divine grace, because neither they [203] nor the faithful pray to God with sufficient fervor for this intention. Again and again We beg all we ardently love the Church to follow the example of the Divine Redeemer and to give themselves constantly to such prayer.' Ven, Pope Pius XII, Mystici CorporisThey must have had access to some time machine, I want one!  |
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:53:PM by TrentCath »
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