Strange views for a Catholic.

[Gerard]

I think I heard this lecture before. 

It's akin to being in the desert, deciding to leave the oasis and drink from the mirage.  Notice, that in all of this it's the "movement of the spirit" and not the work of the devil? 

Well, I wished to show how the "movement of the spirit" works. It would be downright heresy to say God does not work through false religions. Do you attempt to limit His power and presence? All that needs to be qualified is that He works through them to draw those people to Himself, and to His Church. Just as God permits evil and makes good of it, He permits false religions, and people to make the free choice to join them, that good may come of it. But this is a far cry from saying that these bodies are the one Body of Christ. But as for my life, since I put a little out there, Satan was present, and working. During those years I denied the existence of God. I attempted to lead others into this error, including Catholics. I thought that Christianity was a nice religion, but ultimately inefficacious. I took refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, thereby officially adopting a false religion. I engaged in many sins of the flesh in that period because of the room within their moral system to rationalize away the moral code (no objective standard). So, yes, Satan was present. I did evil works based on his voice in my ears. And Christ worked through this too, because I realized very acutely that Buddhism did not have all the remedies to my ailments. The Buddha as physician did not have all the remedies. And it seemed to me that there was a note in my heart saying, "You need to see another physician for a second opinion."

While I despise the evil of my past, and have laid that at Christ's feet through confession, I do not look at my time astray as ultimately regrettable. I regret sin. But really I was never ready for traditionalism. And my life has taken that path. It was a very fruitful time for me, and there were many good people I knew and learned from that primed me for hearing that message a little before Trinity Sunday in 2002. This is very subjective, but Peter Kreeft understands that path many people take. Maybe because we've been around a lot of people who have lost the Faith, or doubted it, that we can maybe empathize with them. Since I hold Christ is more powerful than Satan, the workings of Satan related to one who converts or comes back to the Faith I hold as naught. Christ is victor. Sin has been conquered. Now for those still in those situations, Satan has a hold, and I pray for them. We can make ourselves worthy messengers so that they to may respond to the call.

I think you're right about it all, but what I was pointing out was that Kreeft makes it sound like it's The Holy Ghost directly leading people out of the Church and into false sects.  God allows people to respond to their own sinfulness or the promptings of the Devil but it's only because He has contingency plans to use their failure at a later date.  When He pours graces out and brings them back into the Church, they will have experience to help pull others in from similar situations.

[Nicolaus]

Kreeft does have some weak points. On one hand he is very good at ecumenism, and on another he is not. He says things that draw people to the Faith very effectively, but then he also is very conciliatory to people of other faiths, so it sometimes looks like indifference. I get what he is saying, though. As someone who left the Faith and came back, I view my time in Buddhism as providential. Without it, I would never have been prepared to come to Christ in a mature way. My Catholic upbringing to roughly age 15 was not substantial. I hungered for something which the Church did not provide to me, or I was not able to discern in my fallen nature as being provided. Mass was boring, catechesis was boring, and the Church had no substantial meaningful message related to my life. Although I still held a very weak faith in Christ, I became a Buddhist at age 19. There I found examples of holiness, a strong moral doctrine, a practical method of self-transformation and growth, and a religious structure that seemed to offer meaning to me. It wasn't until five years later that I was exposed to the traditional Mass, orthodox catechesis and doctrine, the holiness of the saints, and the many good teachers of the last 100 years or so (like Fulton Sheen). So in the providential plan of God, Buddhism truly prepared me to come back to the Faith. If you've never left, and followed another religion fervently, then you may simply not know how Christ acts through other religions. Even if you say He only acts through absence ("black grace"), that action was true and real. The culminating point of my Buddhist journey was going to a monastery to become a monk. After about four days I become obsessively claustrophobic, even though I was in an open air monastery with hundreds of acres of land to wander, and the abbot was very holy. I left there is quite a rush, and within a month I just happen to meet a lady who exposed me to the traditional Mass etc, even though I never knew anything about such a thing. And I was with Christ within a couple of months. (Oh, how I fought that grace intensely!)

So when I read Kreeft, I see that he is acknowledging that a) people are not receiving the spiritual nourishment they need, b) they have gone elsewhere, where they are receiving some nourishment. I left the Eucharist, but I found Christ through goodwill meditation, the poverty of Buddhist monks, the magisterial authority of the Buddha, and such like. He was veiled, but He was there. This does not say that the religion is able to save, or that people are fine remaining in these religions, etc. These religions are cheap knock-offs of the true Mystical Body of Christ. It is like we are committing adultery against our bridegroom. But there is a truth behind adultery, and to deny the love that they seek and, perhaps even, experience in that adultery is not the best way to draw them back to Christ. The love is good. The quest is good. Now come to the true source of that love. The fount of life. Christ. Love incarnate.

And practically speaking, Kreeft is responsible for drawing a lot of people to Christ, so I wouldn't be too quick to place oneself in a position of judgement and superiority. Just sharing my thoughts as one of those who strayed for a time. PAX!

Wow, that is a remarkable conversion story. I had very similar feelings in my search for the Truth. Although there is only one way to God an individual may have a crooked path to take on that journey. When I first heard this speech I thought he was saying that God was leading people out of the Church and into other false Religions and that this was a good thing. Now, after reading what you had to say, I feel he was saying that a revert is more in Love with God then a complacent Catholic. Or that’s at least what I think he is saying.

[Scotus]

I think Prof. Kreeft has said that he had an out-of-body experience whilst surfing to Hawaii and landed on a 'heavenly beach' where he met Buddha and Muhammad who had become devout Catholics.

[jacobhalo]

Not according the Pope John Paul II.  According to him, all religions can gain salvation.

Where did he say that?


Authentic quotes?

Pope John Paul II " The mystery of salvation is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from
this single source it reaches the whole world. There is no salvation outside the Church. From her
alone there flows the life giving force destined to renew the whole of humanity, directing every human
being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ."
Losservatore Romano Oct.12,1981

Pope John Paul II "There is no entering into salvation outside of the Church, just as in the time of
the Deluge there was none outside the Ark which denotes the Church."
Wanderer May 4, 1992

But...but...he's a post Vatican II pope!  He can't be a good Catholic! 

 

  It was in the the previous edition of NC Register.  An interviewee was saying why is was so difficult to convert people to Catholicism.  I threw it away.  I'll have to go on line and look for it,

[jacobhalo]

Not according the Pope John Paul II.  According to him, all religions can gain salvation.

Where did he say that?


Authentic quotes?

Pope John Paul II " The mystery of salvation is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from
this single source it reaches the whole world. There is no salvation outside the Church. From her
alone there flows the life giving force destined to renew the whole of humanity, directing every human
being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ."
Losservatore Romano Oct.12,1981

Pope John Paul II "There is no entering into salvation outside of the Church, just as in the time of
the Deluge there was none outside the Ark which denotes the Church."
Wanderer May 4, 1992

Go to "byzcath.org.  The pope basically says that God helped create all religions and that the Holy Spirit is a part of all religions.

[Pilgrim]

Go to "byzcath.org.  The pope basically says that God helped create all religions and that the Holy Spirit is a part of all religions.

Do you have a specific link?

[Scriptorium]

Go to "byzcath.org.  The pope basically says that God helped create all religions and that the Holy Spirit is a part of all religions.

Do you have a specific link?

Maybe he means this one:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/305004/Pope%20John%20Paul%20II%20on%20Salvation

[GottmitunsAlex]

Go to "byzcath.org.  The pope basically says that God helped create all religions and that the Holy Spirit is a part of all religions.

Do you have a specific link?

Maybe he means this one:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/305004/Pope%20John%20Paul%20II%20on%20Salvation

Ouch.

[Pilgrim]

Thanks, Scrip!

Well, I'm no theologian, but the way I interpret these words is that every religion is based on the natural desire for God, something that Thomas Aquinas himself claims.  In that way, the Holy Spirit does act through religion in general.  I don't really see anything here about the equality of all religions or about how any religion leads to salvation.

Of course, if i was just looking for a reason to beat on John Paul II, I would probably read these words in an entirely different light...

[GottmitunsAlex]

Thanks, Scrip!

Well, I'm no theologian, but the way I interpret these words is that every religion is based on the natural desire for God, something that Thomas Aquinas himself claims.  In that way, the Holy Spirit does act through religion in general.  I don't really see anything here about the equality of all religions or about how any religion leads to salvation.

Of course, if i was just looking for a reason to beat on John Paul II, I would probably read these words in an entirely different light...

Yeah. You are reading them in a different "light" to begin with, that is why there is no reason for you to "beat" (incorrect word btw) on Pope John Paul II. 

Quite different than what Pope Pius IX said and decreed, huh. No need to read him in any "light". No duplicity, no ambiguity. Just solid, direct words.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/p9quanto.htm

BTW, what do you think of the Carismatic Renewal?
Omni potence anyone?
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KVayLS7ldo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KVayLS7ldo</a>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA