Controversial: discipline for babies, toddlers and children

[spirit407]

Just wondering what most do in the trad community when it comes to disciplining babies, toddlers and children. Do you use different methods for each age or the same for all? Any good books you have read?

I have a 22 month old girl.

Thanks!

[Scriptorium]

We use the Kazdin method, modified in very small ways. Also infused into this is the preventative method of St John Bosco. Our basic method is just like the just war theory -- violence is the last resort. So we use many methods before spanking. I think in 99% of the circumstances spanking is not effective for long-term character development. But we do spank in high priority cases. For example, if my son hits another child in the stomach, I will spank him a few times to emphasize the gravity of the circumstances. Another big thing is to not discipline in anger, but to be very calm, patient, and mature. I find a calm steady strong gaze into my sons eyes, saying with import (but not volume), "Don't you ever do that again." My son knows when I mean business. Yelling and what-not is just a mess, and the message is almost always lost in the cacophony. Again, I make exceptions for emergencies. I will yell if my children are immediately endangering themselves. I also have done some reading on temperament type in order to better understand where my child may be coming from. Kazdin is good too because I learned a lot about phrasing commands. Many times I was phrasing my "commands" as questions. Also he emphasize modeling behavior, so making requests would include words like please and thank you, disciplining would be calm and well-behaved. For example, "Tim, please make your bed and say your morning prayers." Some people (including my wife at first) thought this was decidedly un-parental, but it is amazing what it does in the long-term.

 If you'd like to read more, see:

The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child: With No Pills, No Therapy, No Contest of Wills, by Alan E. Kazdin

Reason, Religion, Kindness: The Method of Saint John Bosco, by Fr. Paul Avallone, SDB

Please Understand Me II: Temperament, Character, Intelligence, by David Keirsey

Four Temperaments, by Fr. Conrad Hock
http://angelicum.net/newsroom/the-four-temperaments-by-rev-conrad-hock/

[Jacafamala]

In my opinion, true discipline can't start prior to about age three maybe. They need to have enough language under their belt before you can expect them to know what's expected. Prior to that, they're just babies.

[Serva_Ancillae]

Perhaps it's a difference in the use of the word "discipline" but my experience and that of the trad parents I've talked to is that you need to start teaching them out of certain behaviours and teaching them others before they're one.

We're still finding our way when it comes to discipline (DD1 is 2.5 and DD2 is 11 months) so I'm also interested in book recommendations. I might have to look up Kazdin. The parents in the parish who - I've noticed - have the most polite, helpful, pious children are very mature and unflappable with their correction so I'd like to train myself to train them in that way. I think often the difficulties come because it's hard to know what you can expect at different ages but modern psychologists are *way* off there so we're muddling through. Watching other parents really can be eye-opening so I'd recommend (to you and myself) to spend more time with effective parents to watch and ask questions.

[three_emcees_and_onedeacon]

In my opinion, true discipline can't start prior to about age three maybe. They need to have enough language under their belt before you can expect them to know what's expected. Prior to that, they're just babies.

Not to disagree, because they do need the vocabulary to communicate, but their understanding and comprehension from what you tell them, even after a year and a half is staggering.

Babies get a pass, naturally. But toddlers show their willfulness really early on, depending on the child. And depending on how stubborn and willful the child, you need discipline early, or it'll snowball from a disobedient toddler to a disobedient child, and so on.

I guess it all depends on the kid. My little girl is the most willful thing in creation. Love her to pieces but like every kid she needs a spanking once in a while. She doesn't have full use of reason, so obviously warnings come before punishment, not just straight spankings.

Most parents, especially with the influence of Supernanny and other shows of the same ilk equate proper parental disciple to child abuse, when in reality it's the furthest thing from abuse there is. You don't do it to hurt your kid. You do it it because you love them (crazy as it may sound) and do you know what? Kids who are disciplined as opposed to kids who are allowed to run wild actually feel they are loved by their parents more, that the parents actually care about how they are and how they will be raised.

Just my 0.02

[Fontevrault]

In my opinion, true discipline can't start prior to about age three maybe. They need to have enough language under their belt before you can expect them to know what's expected. Prior to that, they're just babies.

Not to disagree, because they do need the vocabulary to communicate, but their understanding and comprehension from what you tell them, even after a year and a half is staggering.

Babies get a pass, naturally. But toddlers show their willfulness really early on, depending on the child. And depending on how stubborn and willful the child, you need discipline early, or it'll snowball from a disobedient toddler to a disobedient child, and so on.

I guess it all depends on the kid. My little girl is the most willful thing in creation. Love her to pieces but like every kid she needs a spanking once in a while. She doesn't have full use of reason, so obviously warnings come before punishment, not just straight spankings.

Most parents, especially with the influence of Supernanny and other shows of the same ilk equate proper parental disciple to child abuse, when in reality it's the furthest thing from abuse there is. You don't do it to hurt your kid. You do it it because you love them (crazy as it may sound) and do you know what? Kids who are disciplined as opposed to kids who are allowed to run wild actually feel they are loved by their parents more, that the parents actually care about how they are and how they will be raised.

Just my 0.02

Regardless of where you stand on the spanking issue (it's not my favorite idea but I'd acknowledge that there are times when it can be effectively done), Super Nanny does reinforce the need for consistent, firm discipline.  For most families in America, this is a strong first step toward sane expectations in the home.

Galilean, I like the fact that you mention a child's understanding is generally much stronger than his verbal skills in those early years.  I'd say we also underestimate the ability of children to control themselves.  I've seen many of toddler act like a terror because mom and dad assume they couldn't do better.  Hell, I've seen 10 year olds who behave deplorably at mass while my 3 year olds and 2 year old want to get up and scold him.  Language barrier?  - Given that they came to the US from Russia just 5 months ago, I'd say they were at a disadvantage over most.  Self control before the age of 3?  My two year old knows what we expect and does pretty well, sometimes better than his older siblings because he hasn’t built as many bad habits.

[three_emcees_and_onedeacon]

Regardless of where you stand on the spanking issue (it's not my favorite idea but I'd acknowledge that there are times when it can be effectively done), Super Nanny does reinforce the need for consistent, firm discipline.  For most families in America, this is a strong first step toward sane expectations in the home.

Galilean, I like the fact that you mention a child's understanding is generally much stronger than his verbal skills in those early years.  I'd say we also underestimate the ability of children to control themselves.  I've seen many of toddler act like a terror because mom and dad assume they couldn't do better.  Hell, I've seen 10 year olds who behave deplorably at mass while my 3 year olds and 2 year old want to get up and scold him.  Language barrier?  - Given that they came to the US from Russia just 5 months ago, I'd say they were at a disadvantage over most.  Self control before the age of 3?  My two year old knows what we expect and does pretty well, sometimes better than his older siblings because he hasn’t built as many bad habits.

Yeah, it totally varies, kid to kid. I'd love to never have to spank my daughter (and I never do it in anger, but after repeated warnings), but some kids never respond to time-outs, no matter how persistent the parent. Not that I have the patience of Job, but after 45 mins of trying to effectively punish by time-outs, escaping, putting back in time-out, turning off the lights, catching again, warning in a stern voice of even more time outs to come, all the while being smiled at like it's all a joke... there's a point where it becomes ineffective.

And nothing is more important than disciplining the firstborn, as an example to the rest. Not as an example of how harsh the punishments can be, but rather, of the good behavior from the firstborn rubbing off on the rest so punishment down the line can be nearly nonexistent. As I'm sure you know.

[Fontevrault]

Galilean,

We ran into similar issues regarding the effectiveness of time outs at bed time.  Right now, we have 3 kids in one bedroom (all the kids are under 4) and thus had a hard time finding the right tactic to deal with them acting up at bedtime.  To make matters worse, we have a ring leader who sets the others off and then nobody goes to sleep.  It is one of those situations where time outs give the child exactly what he/she seems to want: the opportunity to stay up and see what everyone is doing.  When the other kids got in trouble for what our lovely ring leader managed to encourage them into, they quickly became disallusioned with the whole following the leader thing, so much so that one night I heard her twin brother yell "knock it off" at her.  Now, that the others are not buying in quite as frequently, we can work on the ring leader.  We stand our ring leader in a corner in the dark when she starts to act up.  Our eldest is usually working on homework and watches from her bedroom door while Pilgrim and I just walk away.  She stands in the corner until she is falling asleep standing up - and sometimes longer.  She can fidget and cry all she likes; we don't give her the time of day. The most interaction she gets is a command to face the corner.  When the other children are asleep and she is rethinking her stupidity, she gets to lie down.  It took about 2 weeks of this kind of tactic to make her stop her silliness.  That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion that a quick swat on the behind and a strong admonition to go to sleep might have taken less work and gotten better results.  As it is, the first month and a half after we brought the kids home were hellacious at bedtime.  One night it took us 6 hours to get them to bed. 

[Jacafamala]

Galilean,

We ran into similar issues regarding the effectiveness of time outs at bed time.  Right now, we have 3 kids in one bedroom (all the kids are under 4) and thus had a hard time finding the right tactic to deal with them acting up at bedtime.  To make matters worse, we have a ring leader who sets the others off and then nobody goes to sleep.  It is one of those situations where time outs give the child exactly what he/she seems to want: the opportunity to stay up and see what everyone is doing.  When the other kids got in trouble for what our lovely ring leader managed to encourage them into, they quickly became disallusioned with the whole following the leader thing, so much so that one night I heard her twin brother yell "knock it off" at her.  Now, that the others are not buying in quite as frequently, we can work on the ring leader.  We stand our ring leader in a corner in the dark when she starts to act up.  Our eldest is usually working on homework and watches from her bedroom door while Pilgrim and I just walk away.  She stands in the corner until she is falling asleep standing up - and sometimes longer.  She can fidget and cry all she likes; we don't give her the time of day. The most interaction she gets is a command to face the corner.  When the other children are asleep and she is rethinking her stupidity, she gets to lie down.  It took about 2 weeks of this kind of tactic to make her stop her silliness.  That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion that a quick swat on the behind and a strong admonition to go to sleep might have taken less work and gotten better results.  As it is, the first month and a half after we brought the kids home were hellacious at bedtime.  One night it took us 6 hours to get them to bed. 

Oh. 

[three_emcees_and_onedeacon]

Galilean,

We ran into similar issues regarding the effectiveness of time outs at bed time.  Right now, we have 3 kids in one bedroom (all the kids are under 4) and thus had a hard time finding the right tactic to deal with them acting up at bedtime.  To make matters worse, we have a ring leader who sets the others off and then nobody goes to sleep.  It is one of those situations where time outs give the child exactly what he/she seems to want: the opportunity to stay up and see what everyone is doing.  When the other kids got in trouble for what our lovely ring leader managed to encourage them into, they quickly became disallusioned with the whole following the leader thing, so much so that one night I heard her twin brother yell "knock it off" at her.  Now, that the others are not buying in quite as frequently, we can work on the ring leader.  We stand our ring leader in a corner in the dark when she starts to act up.  Our eldest is usually working on homework and watches from her bedroom door while Pilgrim and I just walk away.  She stands in the corner until she is falling asleep standing up - and sometimes longer.  She can fidget and cry all she likes; we don't give her the time of day. The most interaction she gets is a command to face the corner.  When the other children are asleep and she is rethinking her stupidity, she gets to lie down.  It took about 2 weeks of this kind of tactic to make her stop her silliness.  That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion that a quick swat on the behind and a strong admonition to go to sleep might have taken less work and gotten better results.  As it is, the first month and a half after we brought the kids home were hellacious at bedtime.  One night it took us 6 hours to get them to bed. 

Wow, you guys are patient! I hope it's getting better. It definitely seems like the moral high road not to spank, and I'd rather not have to. But there's no more effective way to show you mean business, in my opinion.

Do all your kids sleep in the same room? My wife and I thought 2 kids under 3 was hard, I can't even imagine 4 under 4! Then again, the parents of the 9 to 12 kid families must read posts like these with a knowing smirk, thinking "they don't know the half of it".