Fish Eaters Traditional Catholic Forum
May 23, 2013, 05:38:AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The man still needs help!
 
   Fish Eaters    Forum Index   Forum Rules   Help Calendar Members Chat Room   Who's Chatting   Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3
 
Author Topic: Recommended trad books?  (Read 1148 times)
LoneWolfRadTrad
Sheepdog in wolf's clothing
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Living in the New World Order/Anti-Christendom but not of the New World Order/Anti-Christendom
Personality type: A sinister kid, the boy with the broken halo... :P usually accused of being a comedic/outgoing/charming/laid back guy. Too laid back in the eyes of most, they wouldn't believe I have a temper. You'd have to do alot to get me angry.
Posts: 1,691


Too often seeing red.


WWW
« on: May 01, 2012, 05:36:PM »

What books would you recommend to someone who notices something is amiss in Novus Ordo land?  A sort of introduction to traditionalists and why we do what we do?

The Great Facade comes to mind, what else?  Ottoviani Intervention is another good one, right?

Gimme more.  No Dimond Brothers, sede or Feeney stuff.
Logged

When you go up to receive communion, you're literally at the foot of the cross.  Standing at all creation's center, the saints gather around.  Martyrs, heroes staring into your very being.  They lived AND died for Christ... can we say the same of ourselves?  What are WE doing to further God's will in this life?  Skipping Mass for our careers?  Our education?  Voting for heads of state, that don't recognize the source of all authority and power?  They won't matter on your deathbed (or whatever end we meet). 

So... why waste time with this modern world's nonsense?  We have our own civilization: CHRISTENDOM.  We must restore it whilst the modern world commits societal suicide. 

Its naive and idealistic to believe government for man by man can succeed.  Restore Christendom in our hearts and homes!  Communities aren't that far off, its a numbers game.

"Accursed is the man that puts his trust in man" Book of Jeremiah Chapter XVII, verse 5.
Spooky
Member

Posts: 3,482


« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 05:39:PM »

"Open Letter to Confused Catholics" by Archbishop Lefebvre.
Logged
Scriptorium
Aimed to Please
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 5,508


In medio stat virtus


« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 07:08:PM »

Ottavani Intervention, by Father Anthony Cekada
Work of Human Hands, by Father Anthony Cekada
Michael Davies Liturgical Revolution trilogy (Cranmer's Godly Order, Pope John's Council, Pope Paul's New Mass)
The Suicide of Altering the Faith in the Liturgy. by Father Paul Kramer
Logged

And whosoever diggeth a pit, Lord,
Shall fall in it, shall fall in it.
Whosoever diggeth a pit shall bury in it,
Shall bury in it.

If you are the big tree,
We are the small axe
Sharpened to cut you down,
Ready to cut you down.

- Bob Marley, Small Axe
CollegeCatholic
Banned for snarking meanness, disrespect toward the Holy Father, twisting what others say in order to mock them, etc.
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Terre Haute, IN
Personality type: ISTJ
Posts: 8,998


Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam


« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 09:08:PM »

Open Letter by ABL.
Pro Apologia Marcel Lefebvre is a good one, too. 
Michael Davies anything

Heresy of Formlessness is great.  Deals with why the NO blows from an artistic/aesthetic viewpoint.

Logged
Mithrandylan
Banned for promoting sedevacantism
Regular

Gender: Male
Location: Tundra
Personality type: Melancholy- a point below phlegmatic
Posts: 10,141


Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.


« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 09:15:PM »

I third the Michael Davies reccommendations.  The man is a GREAT writer, RIP. 

Start with Partisans of Error.  Then the Liturgical Revolution series.
Logged


DrBombay
Quintessential Heckler
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Undisclosed
Posts: 9,719



« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 09:18:PM »

Open Letter by ABL.
Pro Apologia Marcel Lefebvre is a good one, too. 
Michael Davies anything

Heresy of Formlessness is great.  Deals with why the NO blows from an artistic/aesthetic viewpoint.



I second Heresy of Formlessness.

Avoid Work of Human Hands unless you want to drive someone screaming as far away from Traditionalism as they can get. 
Logged

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
Raskolnikov
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,241



« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 09:29:PM »

Avoid Work of Human Hands unless you want to drive someone screaming as far away from Traditionalism as they can get. 

Huh? How would WoHH do that? I found it to be a very thorough scholarly work, and quite impressive. What did you find bad about it?
Logged
piabee
Red Fish
*
Gender: Female
Personality type: ISTJ
Posts: 3,376



« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 09:34:PM »

Ottavani Intervention, by Father Anthony Cekada

[translated by]
Logged

Unicorns are real; they're just fat and gray and we call them rhinos.

"E stands for Egg.
 Moral:
 The Moral of this verse
 Is applicable to the Young. Be terse."
-Hilaire Belloc, A Moral Alphabet
DrBombay
Quintessential Heckler
Member

Gender: Male
Location: Undisclosed
Posts: 9,719



« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 09:49:PM »

Avoid Work of Human Hands unless you want to drive someone screaming as far away from Traditionalism as they can get. 

Huh? How would WoHH do that? I found it to be a very thorough scholarly work, and quite impressive. What did you find bad about it?

Scholarly?  Umm...ok.  Others have a different opinion, which may or may not be correct.  This blog is written by several (?) disaffected ex-parishioners of Fr. Cekada so take it with a grain of salt.  I've not seen anyone point out any glaring errors in it, however.  Indeed, the only errors would appear to be in the good Father's book itself.  It would take awhile, but I think the book is pretty much destroyed by the time one finishes reading all the relevant posts.

http://www.pistrinaliturgica.blogspot.com/2010/12/poor-little-overmatched-churl.html

Quote
Thursday, December 2, 2010
THE POOR LITTLE OVERMATCHED CHURL

“Ak! en lille Svovlstikke kunde gjøre godt.” (Oh! A little match could do well.)

Hans Christian Andersen


Ed. Note: The Reader loves a teary, holiday tale of an impoverished waif's affliction and ultimate redemption as well as the next mawkish sentimentalist. This post, you’ll be happy to learn, isn’t such a story. It’s a radical excision of the cockamamie assertion that Work of Human Hands has, or even could have, offered an authoritative contribution to the discussion of the Pauline reform. It’s also a corrective against the froward endeavor of the book's promoters to convince the Catholic world that Providence erred when it assigned to an ill-schooled outsider an excruciatingly modest role in life. The spectacle is pitiful, but it elicits our sense of dread and distaste, not our sympathy.

From Reader #1

Supporter or adversary alike will concur that Pistrina Liturgica has by now nullified the delusional notion that Work of Human Hands is scholarly. We will now demythologize any claim the book's fawning entourage might advance for its author's possessing liturgical expertise. Our analysis is based on the scientific research of K. Anders Ericsson and others, who have closely studied expert performance. It will become plain how no one in the academic world (including the isolated outcasts and feral interlopers on its periphery) can ever acknowledge the author as an expert. In addition, it will be clear that in this lifetime, the author can never attain the expertise that his claque undeservedly imputes to him, for he never enjoyed what Malcolm Gladwell calls "accumulative advantage."

The Science of Human Expertise

Ericsson's research informs us that experts are made, not born, after years of intense, deliberate practice and systematic training by determined, well-informed teachers, who are world-class achievers themselves. At a minimum, it takes about 10 years or 10,000 hours of sacrifice, effort, and self-awareness to become, say, a chess master or virtuoso musician. The practice must be highly concentrated and informed by coaching, both external (an “unsentimental” teacher) and internal (the self-driving “inner coach”). Furthermore, deliberate practice means stretching oneself to do something that is beyond one’s range. It's a continual effort to eliminate weakness and to avoid easy, automatic responses and “creeping intuition bias.” Another researcher on human expertise, M. L. Germain, has defined several behavioral dimensions of objective expertise, among which are discipline-specific knowledge, formal education, qualifications, and training to be an expert.

An Elemental Education

Savvy business executives and responsible public agencies use the fruits of human-expertise studies to evaluate candidates for employment and proposals for contract work. As Catholics—traditional, sedevacantist, or Novus Ordite—we have as great a stake in assuring that we have genuine experts as does a Fortune 500 company. Therefore, let’s apply these scientifically established principles to Fr. Cekada’s vita to see whether he’s up to our high expectations or overmatched by the complexities of the question and his irremediable preparation.

We’ll address the training issue first. From public sources (e.g., Wikipedia) and his own disclosures to our informants, Cekada graduated in 1973 from a Wisconsin diocesan seminary with a credential in theology. After a spell with the Cistercians, he studied for two years at the SSPX seminary in Écône, Switzerland, until his ordination in 1977, whereupon he returned to the U.S. as a seminary teacher.

Those of us of a certain age know that Catholic educational standards headed into a precipitous decline just before 1969. According to the Wisconsin seminary’s website, it even began offering degrees to laymen in the ’70s, so you can imagine that the curriculum was much adulterated during Cekada’s early formative years. Moreover, as Fr. Cekada has openly remarked, his vocal traditionalism antagonized seminary officials. Arguably, then, it’s highly improbable that he would have been afforded the kind of dedicated coaching required to prepare the career of an expert in the liturgy. Furthermore, in the '70s, the authorities were working overtime to erase from memory any trace of the Tridentine rite: Jungmann’s antiquarian The Early Liturgy, not his Missarum Sollemnia, was all the rage.

During his short two-year stint at Écône, seminarian Cekada would have been busy taking a slate of required courses in a foreign language that he was still trying to learn, so there would have been little time to begin specializing in the liturgy. In fact, at the time, well-informed sources say that the Écône liturgy was a hodgepodge of the new and old. Indeed, former seminarians from that time report that formal study of liturgy was not a high priority: The society's emphasis was on producing priests, not liturgists. Moreover, although Cekada attended the lectures of Guérard des Lauriers, it’s almost a certainty than the learned Dominican would have lavished his attentions on academic stars like the well-bred, urbane, confidently multilingual, and Cambridge-educated (now Bishop) Richard Williamson (ordained 1976), and not upon a parvenu.*

The Lost Decades

From 1979 to the present, Fr. Cekada spent his days in pastoral and administrative work with several chapels, wrote occasional short articles and tracts on sundry sedevacantist themes, initiated some noisy—and self-destructive—controversies (e.g., Leonine prayers, Feeneyism, the Schiavo case), dabbled on the edges of canon law, journeyed monthly to teach a course or two at a tiny traditionalist “seminary,” and actively participated in several building projects. There’s no disputing that his has been an active life, but not the kind of life that produces a disciplinary expert. First, there must have been no time to enroll in graduate school or undergo the daily, concentrated, sustained, specific, and deliberate practice required to satisfy the 10,000-Hour-Rule. Second, he had no universally recognized disciplinary expert to coach him regularly over the years. Moreover, his reactionary** ecclesiology coupled with the absence of formal training rendered him an untouchable in the world community of liturgical scholarship. In this respect, he’s always been the eternal other, a liturgical home-aloner. And as Gladwell mordantly observed, "No one ... ever makes it alone."

To be sure, during these years, Fr. Cekada did some reading and undoubtedly acquired a fair library on the subject. However, deliberate practice, correctly understood, means more than reading, even if the reading is attentive, painstaking, reflective, and thorough. Reading is only preparatory for intense, reflective, and systematic practice, coaching, and training. Admittedly, Cekada became more informed about the liturgy and the Pauline reform than the average American traditionalist Catholic priest, but he simply could not have become an expert under the circumstances of his life. From his self-reported humble origins to his unanchored and restless maturity, the opportunities just weren’t there.

Another Fly in the (self-an)Ointment

Even had Fr. Cekada been able to spare at least 10,000 hours over a 10-year period for deliberate practice in liturgiology, he still couldn’t have emerged an expert. Liturgics, unlike playing chess or the organ, is a multidisciplinary study, which demands solid background knowledge of other disciplines, especially sacred languages (Latin, Greek, Hebrew [and Syriac, perhaps]), comparative linguistics, history and sociology, paleography, textual criticism, theology (post-graduate level), anthropology, and archeology. Pistrina has already demonstrated how ill equipped he is in Latin, the sine qua non for Roman-rite liturgical scholarship. If he couldn’t find the time to master Latin, then he wouldn’t have had the time to acquire the other content areas.

The Bottom Line

Work of Human Hands is the stillborn issue of a neglected intellectual orphan, who has not been able, even in a little way, to match insufficient endowments to an outsized, unwarranted hankering for admission into the exclusive circle of legitimate scholars. The author can never measure up: time, nature, and background will not allow it. Work of Human Hands, in spite of an occasional insight here and there, has no value for the serious student of the Pauline reform. Anyone who endorses this assortment of blunders has lost his way. The book is decidedly not "magisterial": it is pedestrian. It is no magnum opus; it's a maestum onus, a sorry load — of squealing mistakes and thoroughgoing amateurism. Thanksgiving's over: time to throw out this turkey of a tome.

*The following anecdotes will be helpful in assessing Anthony Cekada’s actual relationship as a pupil with Fr. Guérard des Lauriers, who taught dogma: (1) Even seminarians with a very good comprehension of spoken French confide that the learned Dominican, owing to his advancing age, was very difficult to understand in the mid 1970s. (2) At the meeting of April 27, 1983, just before the expulsion of the Nine from the SSPX, Cekada was one of two priests who asked permission to speak to Archbishop Lefebvre in English; other, more educated Americans translated for him.

**Pistrina does not use this word in a pejorative sense. We are admiring readers of Nicolás Gómez Dávila; Readers often have occasion to quote his aphorism escritor sin talento; eunuco enamorado (Notas, p. 433, 2003 edition).
Posted by The Reader at 4:12 PM
Logged

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.
tmw89
"Dr. Technology"
Member

Gender: Male
Location: ? ? ?
Personality type: INTJ
Posts: 5,208


Official Contest Pollster


« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 09:54:PM »

Avoid Work of Human Hands unless you want to drive someone screaming as far away from Traditionalism as they can get. 

Didn't drive me away, and I second what Raskolnikov wrote... then again, maybe that says more about me than it does the book?   Sticking tongue out at you

But seriously, Good Doctor... you shouldn't let the amateurs of that Piss-trina blog color you against the book.  Weigh the complaints of that disgruntled ex-parishioner against the review by Dom Alcuin Reid - a known, respected authority on the liturgy within the NO Church structure - for yourself:

Quote from: Alcuin Reid's review of WoHH on Amazon.com
I have long been in Father Cekada's debt, for it was his booklet The Problems with the Prayers of the Modern Mass that alerted me almost twenty years ago to the significant theological difference between the pre-conciliar and post-conciliar Roman Missals. Work of Human Hands is by no means so succinct a publication. It is a substantial attempt to demonstrate profound theological rupture between the two, and more. It deserves serious attention.

Some will dismiss this study because Father Cekada is canonically irregular and a sede vacantist. Whilst these are more than regrettable, ad hominem realities are not sufficient to dismiss this carefully argued and well researched work. We must attend to his arguments on their merits.

The principal thesis is that "the Mass of Paul VI destroys Catholic doctrine in the minds of the faithful and in particular, Catholic doctrine concerning the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the priesthood and the real presence," and that it "permits or prescribes grave irreverence." His secondary thesis is that the Mass of Paul VI is invalid. His practical conclusion is that "a Catholic may not merely prefer the old rite to the new; he must also reject the new rite in its entirety. The faith obliges him to do so." These strong, even extreme, positions may themselves repel readers. But again, they must be examined.

Work of Human Hands seeks to lay an historical foundation for these theses, examining the liturgical movement of the twentieth century and the work of liturgical reform from 1948-1969. Unfortunately this history is not dispassionate. It makes the mistake of repeating the all-too-frequent shrill cries of "modernism" that abound in Father Didier Bonneterre's slim work, The Liturgical Movement, which I have reviewed elsewhere as "not a study that reaches a conclusion, but a conclusion which seeks the support of a study."

That is not to say that those at whom the finger is pointed ought not to be scrutinised. Dom Lambert Beauduin certainly inaugurated the pastoral liturgical movement, but anyone who studies his seminal work Liturgy the Life of the Church can see that this was both sound and traditional. Beauduin's ideas developed, yes, and he became a suspect ecumenist, certainly, but there is no evidence that he conspired towards or would have been happy with the missal of Paul VI. The influence of the Jesuit scholar Joseph Jungmann¯expounded very well here¯is certainly crucial. Louis Bouyer's liturgical theology was definately different to the prevailing twentieth century scholasticism, but that does not mean that it is necessarily modernist or heretical: theological development is possible so long as it does not deny truths of the faith.

Father Annibale Bugnini is pivotal, of course. But the idea that prevails here, and elsewhere, that he held the reins of power in all liturgical reform from 1948 onward, carefully manipulating and conspiring towards the goal of the new Mass, is false. Bugnini was an activist and an opportunist, certainly. However, as Msgr Giampietro's study of Cardinal Antonelli's liturgical role, The Development of the Liturgical Reform, demonstrates, Bugnini was by no means the principal or sole architect of the liturgical reforms of Pius XII. His moment came later, in 1963, when his friend, Cardinal Montini, became Paul VI and rehabilitated him, naming him secretary of the commission to implement the Council's liturgical reform. This singular opportunity and their frequent personal collaboration is what brought about the Mass of Paul VI.

It must be said that the author's veneration of Pius XII, and his exoneration of him from any responsibility for the liturgical reforms of the 1950s, is excessive. The fact is that we do not know the extent of Pius XII's personal enthusiasm or involvement in their realisation. But we do know that they were enacted on his authority. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, for better or worse, the responsibility for them is his.

Cekada's history of the Vatican II reform is better, though to treat the discussion of liturgical reform at the Council itself in but three paragraphs, and the intense activity of the following five years in but ten pages is rather thin; and there are occasional inaccuracies. One also needs to disentangle the historical narrative from the at times amusing commentary and analogy provided by the author ("The fox [Bugnini] was back in the chicken coop").

However the meat of Cekada's work is found not in his history, but in his theological analysis of the Mass of Paul VI.

Two chapters are devoted to an analysis of the different versions of the General Instruction of the Missal that appeared in 1969 and 1970. Cekada rightly points out that the 1969 text confidently outlined the prevailing theological principles that underpinned the reformed rite of Mass, which was published with it. Cekada demonstrates well (but with a bit too much rhetoric) that these principles leave traditional Catholic theology behind: "sacrifice" is replaced with "assembly", "the Lord's supper" moves in to displace "the Sacrifice of the Cross", etc.

This provoked an unholy Roman row and the "Ottaviani Intervention", which declared that the new Order of Mass "represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated [at] the Council of Trent." Note that Cardinal Ottaviani speaks about the rites, not the Instruction. As Cekada ably demonstrates, the theological principles so boldly outlined in the 1969 Instruction guided the decisions about what went, remained, or was invented for the rites of the Mass of Paul VI (just look the offertory).

This row led to the appearance of a revision of the General Instruction in 1970, with, as J.D. Crichton quipped, a more "Tridentine" phrase put beside each incriminated expression, in order to shore up its doctrinal integrity. However, as Cekada deftly observes, the prayers and rites of the 1969 Order of Mass are identical to those of 1970: a defective building is not rectified by scribbling a few changes on the blueprints. The Mass of Paul VI remains, in its Latin original (before any Episcopal Conference gets to mistranslate it), intentionally theologically different to what came before.

Over half of this book is given over to a detailed exposition of this difference, not at all unsuccessfully. Cekada draws frequently on the writings of those responsible for the reform itself, who state the difference plainly. (One of the strengths of this work is its research and detailed footnotes and bibliography).

To take but one example, Cekada's exposition of the theological reform of the orations¯the collect and other prayers (pp 223-228)¯brilliantly demonstrates that, as Father Carlo Braga boasted at the time, the "doctrinal reality" of the texts was altered in the "light of the new view of human values" and "ecumenical requirements", as well as "an entirely new foundation of Eucharistic theology." My only regret here is that this is not augmented with references to the excellent and detailed work being done on the same topic by Professor Lauren Pristas. Nevertheless, here, Cekada makes his point very well. Indeed, it has to be said that the book as a whole succeeds in demonstrating the substantial theological difference between the two missals.

He also succeeds in demonstrating the impact of a doctrinally different rite on the belief of the faithful. Surveys on the decline in belief in the real presence amongst Catholics are sufficient to underline that.

What the book does not succeed in doing, however, is to demonstrate the invalidity of the Mass of Paul VI. For whilst there is certainly a theological difference between the two, it is by no means proven that in its Latin text the rite of Mass of Paul VI contradicts Catholic doctrine. It may be doctrinally weaker, it may be theologically different, but it is not heretical. Nor can it be successfully maintained, as does the book, that Paul VI had no authority to modify the formula for consecration in the Mass.

Given that, it is certain that a validly ordained priest who intends to "do what the Church does" in celebrating the Mass according to the modern rite, celebrates a valid Mass. Yes, it is possible, perhaps even more likely, that some priests with a formally defective liturgical and Eucharistic theology that may have been unintentionally encouraged by the liturgical reforms, may more easily celebrate invalidly; that too is an indictment of the rite. But Peter holds the Keys, and whatever prudential errors he may or may not have made in the liturgical reform following the Second Vatican Council, he cannot have committed the Church to an intrinsically invalid rite of Mass.

Given its theological deficiency, Father Cekada dismisses the efforts, led by Pope Benedict XVI, to celebrate the modern rites in more visible continuity with liturgical tradition. We disagree here: the Mass of Paul VI is a valid rite, and its better celebration is all to the good. One may even prefer it in good conscience¯as do those generations who have known nothing else. We can argue (and I think quite convincingly) that we can and ought to do better that what is in the Missal of Paul VI, but to worship according to the modern rite is not of itself sinful.

Regardless, Father Cekada's great service is to flag the big question that we have not widely, as yet, been prepared to face. Whilst it is certainly better to celebrate the modern liturgy in a traditional style using more accurate translations, that is not enough. For if the Missal of Paul VI is indeed in substantial discontinuity with the preceding liturgical and theological tradition, this is a serious flaw requiring correction. It is high time, then, that we not only recognise, but do something about the elephant in the liturgical living-room.

from http://www.amazon.com/review/R1KPA6UQBS8XAF/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0982686706&nodeID=283155&store=books

ETA:  to clarify, Reid awarded the WoHH 4/5 stars in his review.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 09:56:PM by tmw89 » Logged

"Fire on the forum?"  Just BLOCK the arsonist from your reality!  See http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3440942.msg33798417.html#msg33798417

"Don't pay any attention to anything that mentions peace, change or hope and fails to mention Christ."
--Mithrandylan


---

REMEMBER MY FISHIES:  +48/-24
Pages: [1] 2 3
 
 
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.8 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC