Bishop Williamson's Bonus Eleison Comments

[Gerard]

Yeah. Any conciliar church you go to is likely to be filled with what are effectively our enemies.

Not always.  Some are partially occupied depending on the parish.  The Popes have really failed in protecting the Sheep from error and being lead astray. 

I frequent concilar Churches all the time.  I watch and see which priest genuflects and which doesn't.  I compare what they say in the confessionals.  Some of them have a Catholic understanding, others don't. 

One of the interesting phenomena that is creeping into the Novus Ordo Church is the dissent from the Church's teaching on imperfect contrition.   Because they've gotten rid of "fear of the Lord" and replaced it with "Awe and wonder" as a gift of the Holy Spirit.  Fear of the Lord is no longer the beginning of wisdom.  (Fr. Larry Richards is big on this one as a priest of some notoriety,) 

But for any serious Catholic, I would not recommend going to any church with your guard down.  The crisis is simply too enmeshed to not put everything to the test.

[Gerard]

Anyone ascribing to the false notion that the SSPX is "outside" the Church or risks "Schism" has already bought into a series of false premises and is not focusing on the reality and the reality of the Catholic faith.

The person who introduced this term into this thread was Bishop Williamson.

SL You’re harsh. Your attitude to schism will lead.
HL Better than undermine the entire creed!

The HL that Bishop Williamson identifies with does not answer with "no" He answers "better", so he believes the schism is something good.

Actually the first two lines state that Bishop W says "we never left."   And the section you quote is referring to an "attitude" spoken of by the soft liner, not an actual schism.  Which is the classic "schismatic trajectory" argument made long ago. 

Disobedience does not make a schism.  Schism is the denial of the intrinsic power of the papacy, like the Orthodox and the Anglicans believe.   Disobedience to the Pope because who wants you to cooperate in his negligence of souls and the defense of the deposit of faith cannot by its nature constitute a real schism. 

A Pope that will not confirm the brethren is not offering anything of real unity.  Canonical unity with heretics only exacerbates the crisis.   The Creed states that the Church is "one" well, if it's not one faith, but a series of faiths in which Adam and Eve do or do not exist, Hell may or may not be empty of humans, original sin may or may not be something real, the Ascension may or may not have had anything to do with Christ's physical body moving upwards in space towards a cloud.   What kind of "unity" is that? 

The Pope implicitly claims unity of faith with numerous contradictory ideas.  Unless he confirms he brethren by settling these matters, there is no reason to be complicit with his shirking of his duty. 

[MorganHiver]

We were all warned about corruption within the church. VII was nothing more than a pastoral council, which opened doors to evil conspirators and unfortunately, holy men were tested but ultimately failed due to the human condition. Everyone wants things to be easy, uncontroversial, and to fit in with the majority....this is what happened with protestants. The majority requested divorce and to still be able to consume the metaphorical blood and the body...well, they received their wishes. The concrete foundation of our Lord's house has been cracked and every form of devil has been clawing it's way in to divide us all from the body but the Lord promised us that the gates of hell will not prevail. The early church faced far worse than what we are going through today. Pope Benedict surely knows what must be done and he just can't go ahead and change everything in one night without damaging a lot of innocent, clueless faithful and strengthening protestants in their own beliefs. I believe and pray that our beloved church will return to its unique identity.

[JuniorCouncilor]

Morgan, most of what you say is true, but none of it excuses the Pope for elevating Wuerl to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.  There was no reason to do that.  You can't tell me there isn't a bishop in the world with better orthodoxy or orthopraxy than His Eminence.  Indeed, the opposite is probably true.

[Meg]

In Bishop Williamson's Greek Drama, he writes that..."The Church is holy. Do we see that? Where?" Well, the Catholic Church has always been One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. There is nothing unholy about the Church. There have always been humans in the Church who are not holy, but they aren't "The Church." So perhaps the bishop is confused as to what constitutes "The Church."
And there are many good and holy people in the Church, and much good going on within the visible boundaries. But if someone only looks for that which is bad, he or she will definately find it.

The Bishop also writes that, "Rome lifted the ban on the bishops four. But did he make them more free than before?" Presumably, the ban he is referring to is the lifing of the excommunications. But the lifting of the excommunications meant that the bishops could once again partake of the sacraments of the Church as they are provided by Churchmen who are in full communion with Rome. For instance, Bishop Williamson can go to a diocesan priest or bishop for confession, and receive the sacrament of Penance, if he so chooses. The lifting of the excommunications has nothing to do with ministerial functions as a bishop. That's a separate issue.

He also writes that..."Yet Benedict is calling for our aid. To make Truth prosper, or to help it fade." But the Pope has never given any indication, that I'm aware of, that he wants to reconcile the SSPX so that the SSPX can be an aid in spreading Truth. What seems evident is that the Pope wants the reconciliation as a sort of rehabilitation for the SSPX, and for the sake of unity. The Church can do quite well without the SSPX, but the SSPX cannot do well without the Church. If the Catholic faith can be well-maintained outside of the visible structure and jurisdiction of the lawful authority of the visible Church, then the Protestants are right. All you need is your own version of "Truth,"  and "Faith." No need for a Magisterium located in Rome.

[Gerard]

It was Vatican II that started mucking around with the concept of "Church."  Atila Sinke Guimareas has a whole book in his series on the changing of the concept of the Church as an organization into a "sacrament."  (The book is called Ecclesia)

I see no indication that Pope Benedict acknowledges and is prepared to do anything in any serious way to help the restoration of the Church through tradition.  if anything, I suspect he views trade as equally problematic as the craziest liberals.  But his tolerance towards progressiveness is a matter of controlling and focusing the changes.  The actual rejection of novelty in favor of tradition is an attitude he seems less sympathetic to. 

Use and old crozier or miter as historical retro-fashion, fine, but actually believe in Adam and Eve?  Sorry, we're too sophisticated for that mythology. 

Traditionally, the "Church" is understood as the Mystical Body of Christ consisting of the Church Triumphant in Heaven, the Church Suffering in Purgatory and the Church Militant, those baptized and in the state of sanctifying grace. 

The organizational structure of the Church militant, consists of both good and bad Catholics who bounce in and out of the mystical body according to the particular state of their souls at any given time. 

Unity with the Pope consists of believing the same creed and partaking of the sacraments that bring us into sanctifying grace.   Unity with the Pope according to his own personal version of the "truth" which is tyrannically imposed by abuse of papal authority is not unity. 

The whole Benedict is the "Pope of Christian Unity" is utter hogwash.   He is the Pope of legislative unity at best and doctrinal chaos.  The Pope of eirenicism.

[Aragon]

It was Vatican II that started mucking around with the concept of "Church."  Atila Sinke Guimareas has a whole book in his series on the changing of the concept of the Church as an organization into a "sacrament."  (The book is called Ecclesia)

I see no indication that Pope Benedict acknowledges and is prepared to do anything in any serious way to help the restoration of the Church through tradition.  if anything, I suspect he views trade as equally problematic as the craziest liberals.  But his tolerance towards progressiveness is a matter of controlling and focusing the changes.  The actual rejection of novelty in favor of tradition is an attitude he seems less sympathetic to. 

Use and old crozier or miter as historical retro-fashion, fine, but actually believe in Adam and Eve?  Sorry, we're too sophisticated for that mythology. 

Traditionally, the "Church" is understood as the Mystical Body of Christ consisting of the Church Triumphant in Heaven, the Church Suffering in Purgatory and the Church Militant, those baptized and in the state of sanctifying grace. 

The organizational structure of the Church militant, consists of both good and bad Catholics who bounce in and out of the mystical body according to the particular state of their souls at any given time. 

Unity with the Pope consists of believing the same creed and partaking of the sacraments that bring us into sanctifying grace.   Unity with the Pope according to his own personal version of the "truth" which is tyrannically imposed by abuse of papal authority is not unity. 

The whole Benedict is the "Pope of Christian Unity" is utter hogwash.   He is the Pope of legislative unity at best and doctrinal chaos.  The Pope of eirenicism.

Do Catholics leave the Church when in a state of mortal sin?

[Stubborn]

Well said Gerard!

[Meg]

Fr. Rostand has released a prayer request, which appeared to day on Rorate Caeli. In addition to the prayer request (for Bishop. Fellay and the Holy Father) he has stated that he renews to Bishop Fellay all confidence, trust, and respectful obedience at this time. Here is the quote from Fr. Rostand in fuller context:

"Let us remember that it is to our Superior General, and only to him, that has been entrusted by the law of the Church and the will of Archbishop Lefebvre the delicate task of our relations with Rome. As such, he is the only competent authority to take prudent decisions for the Society. Because of his function and his 18 years of leadership in keeping the Faith, and seeking common good of the Church, we renew to him all our confidence, trust, and respectful obedience in this difficult time. Our filial piety to him, as to the Sovereign Pontiff, pushes us to do more than usual in thses unusual circumstances: we desire to bring them the support of all your prayers."

Link:
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/

I, for one, will be participating in this latest prayer request.

[Ray M Facere]

Morgan, most of what you say is true, but none of it excuses the Pope for elevating Wuerl to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.  There was no reason to do that.  You can't tell me there isn't a bishop in the world with better orthodoxy or orthopraxy than His Eminence.  Indeed, the opposite is probably true.

You're making more of this that what should be. We don't know what role Cardinal Wuerl will play in the CDF. While it is clear that Cardinal Wuerl is not a fan of traditionalists, nor enforcing Church discipline as we would like, he has written plenty of orthodox reflections on the sacrament of confession and the need to reemphasize it in parishes that may make him qualified for a minor role in the CDF in the Pope's mind. If the role takes him away from Washington, even better.