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Fish Eaters Traditional Catholic Forum > Church > Theology and Philosophy > Can someone unknowingly become a martyr?
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Author Topic: Can someone unknowingly become a martyr?  (Read 556 times)
Deusdark
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« on: May 04, 2012, 11:22:AM »
Can a person become a martyr even though they didnt see it coming?

one example: What if someone in the U.S. decided to REALLY not like Catholics and bomb a church.  The people who died werent expecting to be killed for their beliefs, are they still martyrs?

Follow up question is... what if they were C and E Catholics and they had a mortal sin on their soul at the time, thus dying before confession?


Personally, i'm not sure...
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2012, 11:35:AM »
A martyr is a "witness" and a Christian martyr is one who, by his death, bears witness to the truth of the gospel. Saint Stephen is the proto martyr of the Church. Going on his example, I'm leaning toward the thought that a martyr is one who willingly and knowingly sacrifices his life rather than deny Christ.
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Ray M Facere
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 11:47:AM »
Quote
Can a person become a martyr even though they didnt see it coming?

Yes. A martyr doesn't have to see it coming. Thomas a Becket was assassinated rather unexpectedly during vespers, I believe.

Quote
Follow up question is... what if they were C and E Catholics and they had a mortal sin on their soul at the time, thus dying before confession?

A canonization is an infallible action, so if the "martyr" weren't really in Heaven, there obviously wouldn't be a canonization.
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 12:01:PM »
I forgot about Thomas Becket.. He was killed in the "line of duty" so to speak. What about the slaughtered innocents? I never considered them martyrs in the strict sense, but the Novus Ordo labels them such.
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Ray M Facere
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 12:07:PM »
Quote
What about the slaughtered innocents? I never considered them martyrs in the strict sense, but the Novus Ordo labels them such.

St. Augustine considered them martyrs as well: "[The Holy Innocents] are the first buds of the Church killed by the frost of persecution; they died not only for Christ, but in his stead." (Sermo 10us de sanctis)
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per_passionem_eius
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 12:18:PM »
Quote from: Deusdark
Can a person become a martyr even though they didnt see it coming?

one example: What if someone in the U.S. decided to REALLY not like Catholics and bomb a church.  The people who died werent expecting to be killed for their beliefs, are they still martyrs?

Follow up question is... what if they were C and E Catholics and they had a mortal sin on their soul at the time, thus dying before confession?


Personally, i'm not sure...

I believe a martyr has to have shown heroic virtue, so, a shooting at a church wouldn't necessarily make a martyr, unless their attendance required heroic virtue, for example, if it was dangerous to attend Mass because it was illegal.

Anyone who dies in a state of mortal sin, will suffer eternal punishment. I believe the popes promised a plenary indulgence to any crusader who was killed in the fight for the Holy Land, as long as they'd been baptized, of course, and in a state of grace when they were killed.

Quote from: StrictCatholicGirl
I forgot about Thomas Becket.. He was killed in the "line of duty" so to speak. What about the slaughtered innocents? I never considered them martyrs in the strict sense, but the Novus Ordo labels them such.

I think someone could make a case for St. Thomas knowing that his position was a dangerous one, requiring heroic virtue. As for the Holy Innocents, I confess I neither understand their being called martyrs, nor dispute it!
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 12:32:PM »
Quote from: St. Augustine
The Holy Innocents are the first buds of the Church killed by the frost of persecution; they died not only for Christ, but in his stead." (Sermo 10us de sanctis)

How poetic!
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Pilgrim
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 12:41:PM »
Quote from: Ray M Facere

Yes. A martyr doesn't have to see it coming. Thomas a Becket was assassinated rather unexpectedly during vespers, I believe.

Well, if we are to believe the eyewitness account of the martyrdom, the knights busted in on St. Thomas Becket while he was dining and threatened him before he went to celebrate Vespers, so I think there were some clear indications of what was coming.
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"But Christianity preaches an obviously unattractive idea, such as original sin; but when we wait for its results, they are pathos and brotherhood, and a thunder of laughter and pity; for only with original sin we can at once pity the beggar and distrust the king." -- G. K. Chesterton (1874-1936)

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newyorkcatholic
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 12:58:PM »
Quote from: StrictCatholicGirl
Quote from: St. Augustine
The Holy Innocents are the first buds of the Church killed by the frost of persecution; they died not only for Christ, but in his stead." (Sermo 10us de sanctis)

How poetic!

Beautiful.  Though I recently learned that the liturgical color for the Feast of the Holy Innocents used to be purple, not red.  So they were not considered martyrs in the same sense as other martyrs.  But it wasn't white either, so they were some sort of martyr.

Also St. Stephen is still called "proto-martyr," but he wouldn't be if the Holy Innocents were first.

So I'm confused.
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StrictCatholicGirl
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 01:03:PM »
Quote from: newyorkcatholic
Also St. Stephen is still called "proto-martyr," but he wouldn't be if the Holy Innocents were first.

So I'm confused.

Me too.
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