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Author Topic: Voting for the lesser of two evils  (Read 1370 times)
spiritualis forma
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Location: midwest
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« on: May 16, 2012, 09:18:AM »

My (very neoconservative) parents are subscribed to The Wanderer Press and receive the paper on a regular basis. We stopped over yesterday and I was just browsing through it and came across a letter to the editor about how it is not Catholic to vote for the "lesser of two evils".  A little bit of background: This has always been a touchy subject within my family because I agree with that statement and my parents don't. When I tell them I can't consciously vote for Romney, they tell me that by not doing so I am casting a ballot for Obama. I don't believe that we as Catholics are called to participate in the "lesser than two evils" game; I believe we are called to a greater cause. I feel it is truly detrimental to one's soul to compromise their faith for politics. I, myself, just can't do it.

Anyhow, I asked my mother, "Did Dad read this article about how you're not supposed to vote for the lesser of two evils?". Immediately, she replied "Yes you can. Did you read the one after that?" I hadn't yet, so I did.

I wish I could cite the letters here but you have to have a subscription to the paper to access them online. I will try to summarize them the best I can from memory. Basically, the first was from a man who was stating, while citing infallible papal doctrine, that as a Catholic you cannot willingly participate in voting for the lesser of two evils. It is not morally acceptable to prefer one evil over another because they are both inherenty evil and we have a duty to prefer what is inherntly good, whether popular with society or not, over evil at all times. We cannot compromise for the sake of the greater good. I agree with him wholeheartedly and I have scripture (Romans 3) and infallible doctrine to back me up.

The second letter was written in response to the first, as requested by the newspaper. It quotes Cardinal Ratzinger on the topic of choosing the lesser of two evils--a controversial topic for him at the time: http://www.personal.psu.edu/glm7/m198.htm. It also quotes a Dr. William May: http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/may/maycv.htm. Not to discredit him, but his opinion on moral theology doesn't trump infallible doctrine, or scripture. It also says that the author of the first letter was misinterpreting the infallible papal doctrine that condemns choosing the lesser of two evils. I was open to receiving any credible truth in the second letter until I read a specific part that literally turned my stomach. I will do my best to summarize. It basically said that if, as a voter, you had a choice between two candidates who could be described as follows: both pro-abortion, both pro-euthanasia, both pro-war, both pro-everything else bad, but ONE OF THEM was against something that you as a Catholic were also against, that you as a Catholic had a duty to vote for the one that was less evil than the other. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!?! Does that not ring an alarm to anyone else? How can that be justified? My mind is just completely blown that a Catholic newspaper is actually prescribing that Catholics sacrifice their faith in order to play fair in an inherently evil game of politics.

I guess what upsets me the most, is that I am imagining my parents reading these articles. I'm sure my Dad read them first. He probably read the first one and was somewhat upset. Especially since the guy quoted infallible papal doctrine. But, then he read the second article, quoting simple opinions and talking in secular, faithless terms, and was immediately relieved that he could consciously participate in the game and could justify it to anyone who challenged his decision. That's how my mom responded to me when I mentioned the first article, it was like, "Actually, I'm right, you're wrong.. nice try". I just don't see how, as "Traditional" (I say that in quotations because yes they attend the Latin Mass, but they are very modern in every other aspect of their lives) Catholics, they could read those two letters and choose the second over the first without even thinking twice about it. Are politics really that important that you can't see past the propaganda and put the salvation of your soul before the political well-being of a secularized country? It just seems to me that if we continue to permit and contribute to an increasingly evil government, it will only continue to get worse. I guess I'm just kind of venting here--I apologize. My parents are very hard-headed though and refuse to listen so I can't really talk to them much about this, they just shut me down with political BS and call me an Obamanite.

I am thinking about sending this excerpt from an article I linked to above to my parents, but I'm still not sure if I should:
"It is one thing to tolerate evil by living in an America where God's laws are mocked.  It is something else to contribute to it by not working to eradicate it as best as one can.  And voting for the lesser of two evils is not eradicating evil; rather, it is contributing to it because the lesser of two evils is still evil.  Do we see the other side even TOLERATING the slightest opposition to evil?  No way!  They want to jail all those who do.  They are not working incrementally.  How long did it take before sodomy became the law of the land when the pro-sodomites were given carte blanche by an apathetic populace to demand support for aberrant lifestyles as normal under force of law?  A Paulist “priest” who gave the benediction at the coronation of Kerry as leader of the “party of the devil” at the party’s convention in Boston told the country that it should embrace individuals as neighbors, “regardless of their sexual orientation,” with no distinction whatsoever that we are called by God NOT to embrace sin. To truly love a sinner does not mean confirming him in his vice, which this priest did not make clear.  Moreover, this priest erroneously gave the impression that a homosexual orientation exists in a innate, final, immutable sense, which is a well-known lie.  Of course, this was not clear, because he did not even define what “sexual orientations” he was referring to, i.e., did he also mean that we should embrace as neighbors those inclined to necrophilia, sadism, masochism, and bestiality?  Relatively speaking, this "moral sea change" happened at the speed of light, sadly with the help of clergy like this priest."

So what do you guys think? I'm just looking for opinions of any kind.. on the subject of voting for the lesser of two evils, on how to handle things with my parents, on alternative ways to eradicate the evil that is politics in this country... etc. Thanks!

ETA: I do plan on voting, just not for Romney.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 09:41:AM by spiritualis forma » Logged

--Tara--

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing." -Fulton Sheen

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." Peter 2:1:20-21

"And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just." Romans 3:8
MaterLaeta
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Gender: Female
Posts: 1,197



« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2012, 09:46:AM »

I am despereately struggling with this very thing.

Obama is EVIL.  Look at all he is doing - the NADAA, the HHS mandate, the opensupport for sodomy, keeping military chaplains from speaking the truth, and on and on....

OH, and he has basically said - "Wait until after the election because I don't have to run again and see how much more freedom I will have to push my agenda (loose paraphrase)"  He is scary.

On the other hand - I don't trust Romney.  He created RomneyCare, spoke the other day about allowing homosexual couples to adopt, etc.  I think he is ObamaLite all dressed up to be respectable.  BUT, what if there is even the slightest chance that he will overturn Obama care and bring some fiscal sanity to this country?  Should I vote for that slim chance?

But, another article here: http://thethornand.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/what-to-do-what-to-do-voting-booth-in-november/
asks how can we vote for a non-Christain (Mormon) who does NOT know God and expect God's blessing on our country?  She compares the leser of 2 evils choice to Pontius Pilate's choice.

Food for thought.

I know you were looking for answers and all I did was raise more questions. 

I am truly not sure what to do.  Praying for sure.
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Philippus
Member

Posts: 60


« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2012, 10:59:AM »

It's worse than that. Governor Romney is as manufactured as your most favorite pair of jeans. He comes straight from the political factories where to them, they know there is no such thing as Democrat and Republican. JP Morgan and other financial insitutions have control over these people.

The big question we should ask is when somebody promises you campagin donations, do you feel obliged to say yes to their requests? The answer is YES.

No doubt, we have been sold 10 times over, and don't even know about it.

The Bad
Romney supports NDAA and Patriot Act
Romney supports CISPA
Romney supports Agenda 21
Romney supports the FDA's overreach
Romney supports the Pharmaceutical Companies' lies.
Romney supports the CDC vaccination fabrications
Romney supports the Military Industrial Complex

And then, the Good

Romney is probably pro-life and will maybe vote to overthrow ObamaCARE

The Question

If he overturns Obamacare, will he stealthily replace it with something else that he will sell as a necessity, the way Bush sold us Homeland Security and Patriot Act?

Now that he has said he is in favor of Sodom and Gomorrah adopting children, how likely is it that he will have the same epiphany on gay marriage that Obama just had--perhaps 3 years down the line?

Conclusion:

If we are sure of nothing that Romney will do because of the weight of the bad he has done over the year, then we are free to abide by our conscience to not vote for him.

My 2 cents.


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Adam Wayne
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Banned for disrespecting Holy Father/language


« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2012, 11:40:AM »

Spiritualis forma, you are dead on accurate. Be careful of gray hair. It is the most ingenious disguise ever created to hide the modernist mind lurking beneath it.

Your post made my day. Do not compromise. But it is not your job to convert your parents. Have plenty of children and teach them well.

It is compromise that leads to the loss or negation of the Faith. Now having said that, you don't have to walk the streets engaging everyone in the truth you have found.

I am pushing 50 and I am just starting to figure this out.

Well done.
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Adam Wayne
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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2012, 12:20:PM »

The type you describe also tend to be big in the Pro Life Movement.

How's that working out for them?

Last I heard is that Pepsi is on the A-List again. Some here think that Pepsi not using aborted fetal cells is going to save the lives of babies. What on earth are they talking about?

They must think Pepsi is running an abortuary to harvest their needs, like a Trout Farm or that they are in the Aborta-Agra Business.

No, unfortunately they will always have a huge supply coming from regular channels. It is not cost effective at this point.

The Pro-Life Movement is enemy occupied territory or controlled opposition.
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Nicolaus
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Quaerite Veritatem


« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2012, 12:34:PM »

Well said Adam. I don't have the answers for Catholics, but I do know that Neo-conservatism over the Democrats version of socialism, is like choosing sausage over bacon. They are in essence two areas of thought within the same arena, two wings of the same bird of prey. These are some troubling times we live in, and politics as usual can be a very dangerous game to play. We have souls at stake here. Many have documented extensively the anti-Christian background of Neo-conservatism, and its Trotskyite roots. The masterminds behind this “intellectual” movement are almost all Jewish. They don’t care about Pro-Lifers or Family causes. All they are concerned with is MORE POWER. E. Michael Jones does a great job at highlighting this. Also, Ron Paul highlights this when he talks about foreign policy and the FED.
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Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

 Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.
St. Francis Assisi

He who does not embrace the teaching of the Church does not have the habit of faith.
St. Thomas Aquinas

Heretics think false things about God and call it their faith.
St. Augustine

But what is also to the point, let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is, nor any longer ought to be called, a Christian.
St. Athanasius
Ray M Facere
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Gender: Male
Posts: 503


Making a Case


« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2012, 12:36:PM »

I would suggest to your parents that they are thinking about the good of the nation rather than the good of their individual souls. At first this may seem like a good thing -- thinking of others before yourself, but upon further inspection is especially bad, for what does it profit a man to improve the whole WORLD and forsake his soul?

We are judged on our own personal actions on the only "election day" that really matters -- President Obama will be judged on his, candidate Romney on his, your parents will be judged on theirs, you and me on ours. Does the incremental improvement our nation might see over the next four years with someone other than Obama (even if at this furthest extreme this prevents us from being martyred in the streets) really warrant the loss of our souls?
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... et renovabis faciem terrae ...
Nicolaus
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Personality type: Choleric
Posts: 727


Quaerite Veritatem


« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 01:31:PM »

I would suggest to your parents that they are thinking about the good of the nation rather than the good of their individual souls. At first this may seem like a good thing -- thinking of others before yourself, but upon further inspection is especially bad, for what does it profit a man to improve the whole WORLD and forsake his soul?

We are judged on our own personal actions on the only "election day" that really matters -- President Obama will be judged on his, candidate Romney on his, your parents will be judged on theirs, you and me on ours. Does the incremental improvement our nation might see over the next four years with someone other than Obama (even if at this furthest extreme this prevents us from being martyred in the streets) really warrant the loss of our souls?

These are my thoughts exactly.
Logged

Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

 Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words.
St. Francis Assisi

He who does not embrace the teaching of the Church does not have the habit of faith.
St. Thomas Aquinas

Heretics think false things about God and call it their faith.
St. Augustine

But what is also to the point, let us note that the very tradition, teaching, and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning was preached by the Apostles and preserved by the Fathers. On this the Church was founded; and if anyone departs from this, he neither is, nor any longer ought to be called, a Christian.
St. Athanasius
Petertherock
Greatest of all sinners
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Location: Falmouth, ME
Posts: 9,976



WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 01:40:PM »

With secular elections there will always be the "lesser of the two evils." Every candidate is human and all humans are sinners. Therefore, we will always have to choose the lesser of the two evils. I am no fan of Romney and I don't trust him any farther than I can throw him but given what's in office now...even if Romney is only marginally better, he will at least be better.

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Darryl
Ut In Omnibus Glorificetur Deus

"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." -St. Athanasius
spiritualis forma
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Gender: Female
Location: midwest
Posts: 20



« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 02:40:PM »

Spiritualis forma, you are dead on accurate. Be careful of gray hair. It is the most ingenious disguise ever created to hide the modernist mind lurking beneath it.

Your post made my day. Do not compromise. But it is not your job to convert your parents. Have plenty of children and teach them well.

It is compromise that leads to the loss or negation of the Faith. Now having said that, you don't have to walk the streets engaging everyone in the truth you have found.

I am pushing 50 and I am just starting to figure this out.

Well done.

Thank you!  Blush I am trying to be humble about this.. I don't feel the way I do because I want to be right, I am upset that otherwise good Catholics are being led astray for the sake of secular politics. I don't want my parents to be damned to hell because they choose Americanism over their faith!

You don't have to be Catholic though to realize the fallacy that is American politics. How do you like your tyranny? Republican or Democrat? They are virtually the same in my opinion. Nothing has ever been done to reverse Roe V Wade. No candidate, regardless of his promises, has ever done what he could to outlaw abortion. So now that I am faced with two really bad candidates, I'm supposed to put my trust in the Mormon who changes his mind about crucial moral issues such as abortion with the political tide? No, no I can't do that. I can't believe that if Christ were here he would condone that action. If there is a better option out there, which I believe there is, I must choose it.

Obviously this whole democracy thing isn't working out. Not when you have to choose between evil or evil to run a country.
Logged

--Tara--

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing." -Fulton Sheen

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." Peter 2:1:20-21

"And not rather (as we are slandered, and as some affirm that we say) let us do evil, that there may come good? whose damnation is just." Romans 3:8
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