Where do we stand? Fr. Arnaud Rostand; USA District Superior

[Phillipus Iacobus]

There are degrees of dissent.  Vatican II had a factions of conservatives and liberals.  Differences have always existed.  Is it right then to subjectively kick people out of the Church with tendencies we don't like? Every cleric is entitled to an ecclesiastical trial.  Hopefully stronger authorities will sanction real dissenters in the future, but no man can assume that authority on his own. 

If the things being disagreed upon allow room for dissent, of course it's okay. Look at Molinism and Thomism.

[PeterII]

There are degrees of dissent.  Vatican II had a factions of conservatives and liberals.  Differences have always existed.  Is it right then to subjectively kick people out of the Church with tendencies we don't like? Every cleric is entitled to an ecclesiastical trial.  Hopefully stronger authorities will sanction real dissenters in the future, but no man can assume that authority on his own. 

If the things being disagreed upon allow room for dissent, of course it's okay. Look at Molinism and Thomism.

Those are two opinions, not dissent.  The point is that one may dissent from the teachings of the Church and still be considered a member of the Church in many cases, as there are many types of theological censures. Some theological dissenting opinions are mortal sins, and some are venial.  The canonical penalties can vary from excommunication, to suspension, to interdict. 

[Vetus Ordo]

FSSP -» Kiko's boys

Same faith.

 

[PeterII]

Faith can come in various degrees too though.  That's why it's possible to say that some are weak in faith, or some have strong faith.  The question is, who has the authority to decide what constitutes membership in the Church?  The Dimond Brothers?

[Phillipus Iacobus]

FSSP -» Kiko's boys

Same faith.

 

Good point. If it is, like I have asked others, why even be a trad? Nostalgia, preference, maybe even pride?

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Faith can come in various degrees too though.  That's why it's possible to say that some are weak in faith, or some have strong faith.  The question is, who has the authority to decide what constitutes membership in the Church?  The Dimond Brothers?

Benedict XVI has approved of the Neocatechumenal Way. See this:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R4M1RdCxfI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R4M1RdCxfI</a>

It appears that the regularization of the SSPX is going to force me to decide what exactly is "traditional Catholicism." What does it mean to be a "trad?" If the SSPX is regularized, both they and the N.W. are licit, legitimate, approved of expressions of Faith. The only apparent differences would be accidental, and not substantial. Thus, we have a taste for the old liturgy and spiritually, and VII can be interpreted as perfectly Catholic, and so on.

Were the James Likoudises right all along? Or is the above line of thinking problematic.

[Crusading Philologist]

ROME, April 11, 2012 – With a letter written personally to Cardinal William J. Levada, Benedict XVI has ordered the congregation for the doctrine of the faith to examine whether the Neocatechumenal Masses are or are not in keeping with the liturgical teaching and practice of the Catholic Church.

A "problem," in the pope's judgment, that is "of great urgency" for the whole Church.

Benedict XVI has been alarmed for some time about the particular ways in which the communities of the Neocatechumenal Way celebrate their Masses, on Saturday evening, in separate locations.

His sense of alarm was increased by the plot woven behind his back in the curia last winter, as reported by www.chiesa in the following articles:

> "Placet" or "Non placet"? The wager of Carmen and Kiko (13.1.2012)

> Vatican Diary / The Neocatechumenals get their diploma. But not the one they were expecting (23.1.2012)

What had happened was that the pontifical council for the laity headed by Cardinal Stanislaw Rylko had prepared the text for a degree of blanket approval of all the liturgical and extra-liturgical celebrations of the Neocatechumenal Way, to be made public the January 20 on the occasion of a meeting scheduled between the pope and the Way.

The decree was redacted according to the guidelines of the congregation for divine worship, headed by Cardinal Antonio Cañizares Llovera. The founders and leaders of the Way, Francisco "Kiko" Argüello and Carmen Hernández, were told about it and joyfully told their followers about the imminent approval.

All unbeknownst to the pope.

Benedict XVI found out about the text of the decree a few days before the meeting on January 20.

He found it illogical and mistaken. He ordered that it be scrapped and rewritten according to his guidelines.

In fact, the decree that was made public on January 20 limited itself to approving the extra-liturgical ceremonies that mark the catechetical stages of the Way.

In his speech, the pope stressed that only these had been authorized. While with regard to the Mass, he gave the Neocatechumenals a genuine lecture – almost an ultimatum – on how to celebrate it in full fidelity to the liturgical norms and in practical communion with the Church.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350217?eng=y

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Are they approved or not? Is communion in the hand approved or not? Are altar girls approved or not?

[PeterII]

Are they approved or not? Is communion in the hand approved or not? Are altar girls approved or not?

You do realize that something can be considered licit or legal by authorities but still be bad, don't you?

[Phillipus Iacobus]

Are they approved or not? Is communion in the hand approved or not? Are altar girls approved or not?

You do realize that something can be considered licit or legal by authorities but still be bad, don't you?

The Church would disagree. Have you heard of Fr. Sixtus Cartechini? Fr. Cartechini wrote De Valore Notarum Theologicarum (On the Meaning of Theological Qualifications), published in 1951. Several Roman Congregations used this work to evaluate orthodoxy or its lack thereof, heterodoxy. Chapter 4 is entitled What the Ordinary Magisterium is and how dogmas can be proved from it, or concerning divine and Catholic faith founded on the Ordinary Magisterium.

Fr. Cartechini states

“The liturgy does not create dogmas, but it expresses dogmas because in her manner of praising God or praying to Him the Church expresses what and how and according to what concepts God wants to be publicly worshipped….[so] the Church cannot permit that things should be said in the liturgy in her name that are contrary to what she herself holds or believes.” (p.37)

He later notes that "neither general councils nor the pope can establish laws that include sin…and nothing could be included in the Code of Canon Law that is in any way opposed to the rules of faith or to evangelical holiness."