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Author Topic: Social kingship of Christ  (Read 1259 times)
James02
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2012, 09:25:PM »

Hmmm... I see your point.  If a Jew wanted to lend money to a start-up firm, then why not?  Especially in a Catholic country with anti-usury laws and strong bankruptcy laws.  My point is with public banking firms.  The problem is that bankers cause problems throughout history. 

I guess with strong anti-usury laws, and strong bankruptcy laws, this prohibition may not be needed.  Since the government could not borrow money (by definition usury), then bankers would lose a lot of coercive power.
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"God's Wrath is Glorious, and I have a front row seat"

"We can not guarantee success.  We can only deserve it."

"And who do you say that I Am?"
"That one simple question, whether Jesus of Nazareth was God Incarnate, becomes increasingly decisive between people, as history moves forward. .... The answer to this question cuts into human ties and seems to reflect even on the nature of inanimate things.  What if:  all that is folly in the eyes of the Greeks, and scandal in the eyes of the Jews, ... is Truth?"

And there was no doubt about it -- towards Him we had been running, or from Him we had been running away, but all the time He had been in the center of things.
randomtradguy
A Naomh Seosamh, guí orainn.
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Posts: 615


« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2012, 10:53:AM »

Before you talk about rights, though, you first have to consider why you even believe that rights exist. Their existence is generally taken to be self-evident today, but this was apparently not the case for anyone living before the 17th century. There really is just no good reason for believing that individuals have "natural rights."

One should also consider the fact that man is by his nature political. Men come together to form political communities in order to secure the good life. So, the idea of an individual existing in some prior state of nature is simply a fiction.

Also relevant, I think, is Aristotle's argument that the political community is logically prior to the individual, the family, and the other lower associations. Aside from the fact that these smaller social units are not really self-sufficient,  there is also the idea that each of these units only finds its proper role and purpose within the political community. Outside of that community, each of these units is like a hand cut off from the body, unable to fulfill its true purpose. Aristotle's view, which has greatly influenced Catholic social thought, is obviously radically different from more nominalistic conceptions of political order that always see the part as prior to the whole. Aristotle sees things completely differently. For him, the whole always precedes the part because any sort of relationship or assignment always presupposes a preexisting whole.

I think you can find something similar in Christianity. If you remember that our relationship with God is, to a large degree, mediated through the community of the Church, then even in the spiritual realm, the community as Body of Christ is antecedent to the individual. The early Church clearly thought of herself in this way, as can be seen from the fact that the name she took for herself, ecclesia, was also the word used for public assemblies in the polis. Of course, the Church now relativizes the claims of political communities, puts them within a wider context, and introduces mercy and charity in addition to justice, but, considering all of the above, I see no reason to think that she discredits them completely.

I don't agree with Aristotle about anything, and this is one. I feel man's political nature is due to ancestral sin. I don't think it's godly. And I do agree that natural rights are in fact not obvious (one reason I don't believe in natural law) but it's true that all people have a right to be alive (would you kill a guy on the street for fun?) and live how he wants (would you kill a kid you found masturbating in a closet?) and to own things for this upkeep (would you kill a rich person?)
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randomtradguy
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 11:03:AM »

Quote
I don't believe government has a useful purpose.
If you are libertarian/anarcho capitalist, and base your beliefs on the premise that man is fallen, then I salute you for being rational.  But Original sin cuts both ways, and you need to analyze that objectively, divorcing yourself from the natural repulsion you may feel for government when viewing the vast abuses of our current system.  Hence the Social Reign of Christ is critical for a proper society, and that is why there is a role for government.

An interesting topic that I would like to discuss, but my time is very limited at the moment.

I do thank you for lauding me with rationality. The first great insult in a fight on these fora is ad hominem supposed 'stupidity' of the poster.
However, though ancestral sin works both ways, we offend others and they offend us, I can choose not to offend my neighbor, and it's in Christian charity to not offend him back--to do so is "sin" but to do so out of anger is "revenge" which are the same thing. As a Christian, and this has nothing to do with the state, we are called to mercy and never offense. Therefore a Catholic state in my opinion would be the worst state, since justice would never happen. (It was a canon that bishops had to stand before courts in patristic times and argue clemency for all in court.)
Also, this would lead to mass false conversions, which are graceless. I don't buy that forcing morals on people will harbor a slow conversion. I believe they'll rebel. I have a friend who thinks he can force morals on others so they can get closer to God, and I ended up hating him and I don't speak to him anymore. It assumes a stupidity of the sinner--which assumes everybody is sinning. And forcing one person to do something when they could have done it better freely is wrong, to me.
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Crusading Philologist
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Personality type: Melancholic-Choleric, INTJ
Posts: 3,412



« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 01:53:PM »

Before you talk about rights, though, you first have to consider why you even believe that rights exist. Their existence is generally taken to be self-evident today, but this was apparently not the case for anyone living before the 17th century. There really is just no good reason for believing that individuals have "natural rights."

One should also consider the fact that man is by his nature political. Men come together to form political communities in order to secure the good life. So, the idea of an individual existing in some prior state of nature is simply a fiction.

Also relevant, I think, is Aristotle's argument that the political community is logically prior to the individual, the family, and the other lower associations. Aside from the fact that these smaller social units are not really self-sufficient,  there is also the idea that each of these units only finds its proper role and purpose within the political community. Outside of that community, each of these units is like a hand cut off from the body, unable to fulfill its true purpose. Aristotle's view, which has greatly influenced Catholic social thought, is obviously radically different from more nominalistic conceptions of political order that always see the part as prior to the whole. Aristotle sees things completely differently. For him, the whole always precedes the part because any sort of relationship or assignment always presupposes a preexisting whole.

I think you can find something similar in Christianity. If you remember that our relationship with God is, to a large degree, mediated through the community of the Church, then even in the spiritual realm, the community as Body of Christ is antecedent to the individual. The early Church clearly thought of herself in this way, as can be seen from the fact that the name she took for herself, ecclesia, was also the word used for public assemblies in the polis. Of course, the Church now relativizes the claims of political communities, puts them within a wider context, and introduces mercy and charity in addition to justice, but, considering all of the above, I see no reason to think that she discredits them completely.

I don't agree with Aristotle about anything, and this is one. I feel man's political nature is due to ancestral sin. I don't think it's godly. And I do agree that natural rights are in fact not obvious (one reason I don't believe in natural law) but it's true that all people have a right to be alive (would you kill a guy on the street for fun?) and live how he wants (would you kill a kid you found masturbating in a closet?) and to own things for this upkeep (would you kill a rich person?)

Well, man does seem to be naturally political. For one thing, consider the fact that we have language. This allows us to organize ourselves and discuss matters to a far greater degree than any other animal. Of course, we know that our ability to speak existed before the Fall.

Also, we are always brought up into a tradition and society. These things preexist us, and we have do not choose to be brought into them. Nevertheless, they make us what we are, so the idea of the self-determining individual doesn't really seem to have much basis in reality.
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Loyalty to a doctrine ends in adherence to the interpretation we give it.
Only loyalty to a person frees us from all self-complacency. - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
randomtradguy
A Naomh Seosamh, guí orainn.
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Gender: Male
Posts: 615


« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 05:57:PM »

Well, man does seem to be naturally political. For one thing, consider the fact that we have language. This allows us to organize ourselves and discuss matters to a far greater degree than any other animal. Of course, we know that our ability to speak existed before the Fall.

Also, we are always brought up into a tradition and society. These things preexist us, and we have do not choose to be brought into them. Nevertheless, they make us what we are, so the idea of the self-determining individual doesn't really seem to have much basis in reality.

Language is a result of evolution, I don't consider it a sign of man's natural tendency to be political.
Basically, I consider man's politicalness the tendency to be in other men's affairs; stealing, coercion, etc. Again, I consider this the result of ancestral sin. I have not heard a rebuttal yet.
I have also heard the statement that we are all de facto reliant on others, and this somehow annuls any claim to rights of man. I don't see how the conclusion follows.
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Crusading Philologist
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Personality type: Melancholic-Choleric, INTJ
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 07:19:PM »

Language is a result of evolution, I don't consider it a sign of man's natural tendency to be political.

I don't really see why the origin of language is relevant. Assuming it is merely a result of evolution, it is still an essential quality of human beings. A creature without the potential to use language just isn't human. This capacity to use language is what allows us to agree on a common goal and work toward it together. That would seem to be pretty close to the classical definition of politics to me.

That said, I'm not sure that we should think of language as just a random product of the evolutionary process. Traditionally, I think the ability to communicate with others has been taken to be a result of our having been created in the Image of God, in which case there is nothing random about it.

Basically, I consider man's politicalness the tendency to be in other men's affairs; stealing, coercion, etc. Again, I consider this the result of ancestral sin. I have not heard a rebuttal yet.

In that case, there may just be some problems with definitions. Obviously, things like stealing are a result of original sin (there is no difference between Eastern and Western teaching on this issue, by the way), but I don't think anyone who says that man is political by nature considers stealing to be the essence of politics. Coercion is a little more complicated. As a result of the Fall, it is sometimes necessary to resort to coercion in order to defend justice, but even coercion is generally not seen as being essential to politics. For example, St. Thomas argues that there would have been government even without the Fall. This is because government for him is primarily defined by its goal, which is the good. Even without the Fall, according to St. Thomas, men would have organized in order to pursue the good. You have to understand that the classical and medieval writers have a completely different understanding of politics.

I have also heard the statement that we are all de facto reliant on others, and this somehow annuls any claim to rights of man. I don't see how the conclusion follows.

Well, I think it shows that the anthropology behind the "rights of man" is false. Here, we start with some sort of isolated, worldless self. In reality, we are never isolated or worldess. Instead, we are always already in the world and involved with other people. The isolated individual is a fiction, and so using it as a starting point for talking about social organization is always going to lead you down the wrong path. We are so involved with, and even determined by, the actions of others, that there really is no such thing as "the individual." In any case, I have not seen any compelling reason to believe in human rights.

Another point to consider is the fact that Christian doctrine tells us that there never was a time when only one isolated individual existed. Even before time began, the first thing we see is three things: the Trinity, three Persons in relation. So, at the deepest level, I think Christianity points toward the primacy of relationality. Relationality is coprimordial with individual persons. In contrast, the whole anthropology behind individual rights, it seems to me, is based on the assumption that relationships are somehow secondary or less real than individuals.

Also, as mentioned above, the Church has always thought of herself as a public society. If politics were only a result of the Fall, why would Christ come to found a political community? This would seem to show that we are essentially political, which in itself is a good thing. However, in practice this tendency toward politics has been corrupted by the Fall, which is why we see things like abuse of power and the need for coercion. The Church, as a society based on charity, corrects this and shows us what true community really looks like, but this still means that man's political nature is inherently good.
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Loyalty to a doctrine ends in adherence to the interpretation we give it.
Only loyalty to a person frees us from all self-complacency. - Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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