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Author Topic: God elects some to eternal damnation?  (Read 5564 times)
Melkite
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« on: June 26, 2012, 06:18:PM »

This is primarily for Walty:

How does God not elect some to damnation if he elects some to salvation? 

It's plainly logical.  If God elects some to salvation, and no one can be saved by their own initiative, because it has to be God's sovereignty that saves us, and it is not possible to be saved otherwise, then God by necessity must elect those to damnation who go unsaved, because they are unsaved since God did not choose to save them.
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Walty
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 06:53:PM »

This is a genuine question, Melkite and I respect the problem that you have with it.  I suspect that we'll get a bit deeper into this as the thread progresses so please don't take what I'm about to say as the whole of the Thomistic argument on this topic.  I'm merely trying to give a short, introductory comment from which we can dive in more deeply.  Here's my understanding:

Calvinism says that God chooses for those who are damned to be damned.  He almost choses them to sin and wills them toward evil with his antecedent will.  In Thomism, the only thing that God wishes or wills with His antecedent will is that all men are saved, but in order that a greater good may exist, He allows some men to be damned.

Now, this means that God only wills individuals to election.  Those that are damned are done so only by their own sins.  It is true that God allows this to happen but only by his permissive will, again, so that a greater good can result.

This greater good is that justice is satisfied and that God shows not just His mercy but also His justice.  I trust that you understand why this is essential.  Recall that no man can move himself to salvation.  Only God has the power to do that, as we are told in the Scriptures.  God is the source of all grace, and even accepting grace takes a certain kind of grace, thus we can't attribute our salvation at all to ourselves, but only to God.  Thus God could choose between saving everyone, saving some, or damning everyone.  The second option is the only one which allows for Him to be both just and merciful.

This is likely to be misunderstood or confused.  And please keep in mind that this is a mystery and not something that Thomas or anyone else would be able to fully explain.  I think it sounds worse than it is, which is why the theological definitions involved in this need to be more thoroughly treated.  I'll leave you, however, with this for the time being. 

I'm getting out my Garrigou-Lagrange on the topic so that I can give you some direct quotes later on.
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Quote from: Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P.
The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
 they are intolerant in practice because they do not love.

Timorem Domini docebo vos.
Melkite
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 11:17:PM »

Calvinism says that God chooses for those who are damned to be damned.  He almost choses them to sin and wills them toward evil with his antecedent will.  In Thomism, the only thing that God wishes or wills with His antecedent will is that all men are saved, but in order that a greater good may exist, He allows some men to be damned.

I understand that there is a difference between Calvinism and Thomism, at least abstractly.  But it seems, at least to me, that it is more a matter of speculative theology than anything actual.  Whether God specifically chooses people to be damned, or God merely allows some people to suffer the justice of their own freely chosen sins, as long as it is impossible for someone to be saved unless God chooses them to be saved, then the end result seems to be the same: those who are damned are so because God did not choose for them to be saved, and they were incapable of avoiding a situation that they were ultimately born into, not one that they freely chose (since it is Catholic teaching that even if someone dies with Original Sin alone, they would go to hell).

Quote
Now, this means that God only wills individuals to election.  Those that are damned are done so only by their own sins.  It is true that God allows this to happen but only by his permissive will, again, so that a greater good can result.

What greater good can there be for humanity, or for God in respect to his relationship with humanity, than that all people be saved?

Quote
This greater good is that justice is satisfied and that God shows not just His mercy but also His justice.  I trust that you understand why this is essential.  Recall that no man can move himself to salvation.  Only God has the power to do that, as we are told in the Scriptures.  God is the source of all grace, and even accepting grace takes a certain kind of grace, thus we can't attribute our salvation at all to ourselves, but only to God.  Thus God could choose between saving everyone, saving some, or damning everyone.  The second option is the only one which allows for Him to be both just and merciful.

I understand why it's essential from an academic perspective, but look at it on an individual level.  The person who is elect is shown mercy, so justice is not satisfied there.  Likewise, the reprobate is shown justice so has no concept in his experience of anything more than a fleeting, circumstantial mercy at various points in his life before eternal damnation.  In order for God to be truly just, wouldn't he have to give everyone at least the initial grace to be able to choose or reject him?  But if he does give that initial grace to everyone, isn't that contrary to an essential point of the Thomistic philosophy on this issue?  That is, that that initial grace would be completely superfluous if God does not follow up with the efficacious grace to complete the transaction, so to speak?

Perhaps this is tangential, but this thought just popped into my mind.  If it is just that we all deserve eternal damnation merely for original sin, that we are all collectively responsible and collectively culpable for Adam's personal sin, why are we not also collectively eligible for salvation due to Christ's personal redemptive action?  I don't believe in universal salvation, but if Christ is the new Adam, why then does not his redemption effect all of mankind as Adam's sin, the antitypical antecedent, effected all of mankind?  How is it just to hold all men accountable for the sin of Adam but to elect certain people on an individual basis?
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Walty
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Posts: 14,503



« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 01:00:AM »

FYI, if I can't respond to this tonight I'll post up a response tomorrow.
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Quote from: Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P.
The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
 they are intolerant in practice because they do not love.

Timorem Domini docebo vos.
Walty
Member..

Gender: Male
Posts: 14,503



« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 07:06:PM »

Melkite, I promise you that I WILL respond.  It's just been a busy day and I want to take my time in responding.  For some reason, my two-month old daughter isn't super interested in the theological discussion of predestination.  Haha.
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Quote from: Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P.
The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes;
she is tolerant in practice because she loves.
The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe;
 they are intolerant in practice because they do not love.

Timorem Domini docebo vos.


Melkite
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Gender: Male
Posts: 4,210



« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 08:32:PM »

Melkite, I promise you that I WILL respond.  It's just been a busy day and I want to take my time in responding.  For some reason, my two-month old daughter isn't super interested in the theological discussion of predestination.  Haha.

LOL, no worries Smile  God just hasn't willed her to be interested yet.
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Mithrandylan
Banned for promoting sedevacantism
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Personality type: Melancholy- a point below phlegmatic
Posts: 10,141


Divínum auxílium ✝ maneat semper nobíscum.


« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 09:50:PM »

Melkite, I promise you that I WILL respond.  It's just been a busy day and I want to take my time in responding.  For some reason, my two-month old daughter isn't super interested in the theological discussion of predestination.  Haha.

Baby isn't interested in Thomistic predestination?

#failedfather

Now I'm gonna try to make that into an Asian dad meme.  I'll see what I can do.
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INPEFESS
Please remember me in your rosary intentions.
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† "If anyone love Me, he will keep My word." †


« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2012, 06:33:PM »

I would like to respond to this as well, but, unfortunately, the best way to respond is by posting a few chapters from Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange's Predestination in which he answers this very question. Since the book isn't online, I will have to copy it by hand. I will see if I can do that in the near future if it would be beneficial.
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I  n
N omine
P atris,
E t
F ilii,
E t
S piritus
S ancti

"The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative magisterium" (Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum, no.  9, June 29, 1896).

“Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time” (2 Peter 1:10).

GloriaPatri
Banned for megaphoning instead of honestly discussing
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Posts: 459



« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 06:52:PM »

Just a general question for anyone who replies to this thread: is the Thomistic explanation of predestination required belief? I would assume not simply based on the existence of the Molinist school, but at the same time I'm not sure whether the Molinist account of predestination differs that much from the Thomistics.
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Silouan
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Posts: 505



« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 07:00:PM »

In order for God to be truly just, wouldn't he have to give everyone at least the initial grace to be able to choose or reject him?


And here you hit the nail on the head. God is not just because He meets out the proper punishment. He is just because He offers His love and mercy to everyone without exception. In fact, St Isaac the Syrian goes so far as to say we shouldn't even call God just.


    Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. ‘He is good’, He says, ‘to the evil and to the impious.’ How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? ‘Friend, I do thee no wrong: I choose to give unto this last even as unto thee. Or is thine eye evil because I am good?’ How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it, and thus bore witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God’s justice, for while we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.



I have some suggesting reading and listening for you. I think you may appreciate it.

St Isaac the Syrian, a Theologian of Love and Mercy

The Wrath Of God



Perhaps this is tangential, but this thought just popped into my mind.  If it is just that we all deserve eternal damnation merely for original sin, that we are all collectively responsible and collectively culpable for Adam's personal sin, why are we not also collectively eligible for salvation due to Christ's personal redemptive action?  I don't believe in universal salvation, but if Christ is the new Adam, why then does not his redemption effect all of mankind as Adam's sin, the antitypical antecedent, effected all of mankind?


Holy Scripture certainly seems to indicate that may be the case.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. - 1 Corinthians 15:22

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. - Romans 5:18

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. - Romans 11:32


I'm sure someone could argue that all doesn't really mean all, as the Calvinist tend to do. I'm just sure how much sense that makes.
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We will not remove the age-old landmarks which our fathers have set, but we shall keep the tradition we have received. For if we begin to erode the foundations of  the Church even a little, in no time at all the whole edifice will fall to the ground.

St John of Damascus
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