I am Jewish

[Roman]

Your quote proves nothing much: it is shocking, but every text of  casuistry, of Casuistic Law (of which there are also shocking passages  in the Pentateuch; and Casuistic Law is what the Talmud is in the end),  may include shocking passages (btw, the whole very complicated passage,  which is mostly about civil compensation and criminal punishment for  these kinds of acts is available here).
 
  The right place to look for comparisons is not St.Thomas, but  Moralists, who deal with such issues; in any case, orthodox Catholic  moralists will never give such answers, because Christian thinking and  reasoning is essentially different.
 
 I can quote bizzarre  portions of the Koran and of the Sira and then we can wage a "Holy War"  of non-Christian books, what about that?
 
 What exactly do you  intend to prove? Why aren't you as harsh on Mohameddans as you are with  the people of Israel? Why this fixation? Why this obsession?
 

[MauricePinay]

What exactly do you intend to prove?

 

That no traditional Catholic would defend the Talmud.

 

Why aren't you as harsh on Mohameddans as you are with the people of Israel?

 

First of all, I am not "harsh on" the people of Israel. Christians are spiritual Israel. I do have a problem with Talmudists. You confuse the two. I do not.

 

The reason I am not "harsh on Mohameddans" is because the Talmudists have that job well covered.

 

I will not fall for that Judeo-Masonic trick of turning Christians against Muslims, because the real enemy is the one pairing Muslims and Christians against each other--a gambit which you perpetuate right here and now.

 

Muslims, within their false religion, honor Jesus and Mary, where Talmudists blaspheme them.

 

Muslims do not fight through dishonest means of usurpation and subversion. Muslims may be spiritual enemies, but they are far more honorable enemies than Talmudists are. 

 

Why this fixation? Why this obsession?

 

Because Talmudists are obsessed with bringing down what my Lord puts up. The enemies of Christ are my enemies.

 

I suppose I should be asking you the same question.

 

Why this fixation? Why this obsession with defending the avowed enemies of Christ? This position has no place in Catholic tradition. And this is a traditional Catholic forum.

 

 

[MauricePinay]

"...Casuistic Law is what the Talmud is in the end..."

 

The Talmud is a large volume of non-sense--dialectics which has as it's end the abrogation of Biblical law.

 

What the Talmud is in the end is eternally condemned by pope Clement VIII for it's vile calumnies against the Christian religion; the condemnation further clarified and enforced by pope Leo XIII.

[Roman]

I have no fixation whatsoever. But I do not want Catholics and non-Catholics who visit these pages to think that Traditional Catholics are an unpleasant anti-Semitic bunch. Many good "conservative" Catholics have avoided some Traditional Catholic circles because of this unbelievable anti-Judaism and this fixation with the Jewish people.

 

I want you, who like to quote so much, to give me ONE reliable quotation from a Pope stating that the Jewish people of our days, the post-Temple Jewish people, is not the same Jewish people of all time, the people of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

It is easy to find many quotes which state the contrary. And I do not even have to leave the Catholic Encyclopedia...

 

From History of the Jews:

 

...in 1247 Innocent IV issued a Bull reprobating the false accusations and various excesses of the time against the Jews. Writing to the bishops of France and of Germany the latter pontiff says:

Certain of the clergy, and princes, nobles and great lords of your cities and dioceses have falsely devised certain godless plans against the Jews, unjustly depriving them by force of their property, and appropriating it themselves; . . . they falsely charge them with dividing up among themselves on the Passover the heart of a murdered boy. . . . In their malice, they ascribe every murder, wherever it chance to occur, to the Jews. And on the ground of these and other fabrications, they are filled with rage against them, rob them of their possessions without any formal accusation, without confession, and without legal trial and conviction, contrary to the privileges granted to them by the Apostolic See. . . . They oppress the Jews by starvation, imprisonment, and by tortures and sufferings; they afflict them with all kinds of punishments, and sometimes even condemn them to death, so the Jews, although living under Christian princes, are in a worse plight than were their ancestors in the land of the Pharaohs. They are driven to leave in despair the land in which their fathers have dwelt since the memory of man. . . . Since it is our pleasure that they shall not be disturbed, . . . we ordain that ye behave towards them in a friendly and kind manner. Whenever any unjust attacks upon them come under your notice, redress their injuries, and do not suffer them to be visited in the future by similar tribulations.

 

Yes, yes, this is the same people whose ancestors lived under the Pharaohs. Of course, Pope Innocent was not well informed about the wonderful "ethnical" discoveries of 19th and 20th century anti-Jewish apologists...

 

 

[MauricePinay]

You have admitted that the past popes were not aware of the work of Hungarian Jew, Arthur Koestler and Tel Aviv University linguist professor, Dr. Paul Wexler (not "anti-Jewish apologists," as you alledge), so why do you offer this challenge when you already know the answer.

 

New York Times Reveals that European-Descended Jews are Counterfeits and have no Blood line to Abraham

The fact that most of those who call themselves Jews are not Jews (Rev. 2:9) and have no claim to the lands of Palestine because they have no genetic relation to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can no longer be suppressed. The October 29, 1996 N.Y. Times, in an article entitled, "Scholars Debate Origins of Yiddish and the Migrations of Jews," states:

"Arching over these questions is the central mystery of just where the Jews of Eastern Europe came from. Many historians believe that there were not nearly enough Jews in Western Europe to account for the huge population that later flourished in Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine and nearby areas.

"By reconstructing the Yiddish mother tongue, linguists hope to plot the migration of the Jews and their language with a precision never possible before.

"It has even been suggested, on the basis of linguistic evidence, that the Jews of Eastern Europe were not predominantly part of the diaspora from the Middle East, but were members of another ethnic group that adopted Judaism.

"...One linguist has recently argued that Yiddish began as a Slavic language that was 'relexified,' with most of its vocabulary replaced with German words.

"...Even more troublesome are demographic studies indicating that during the Middle Ages there were no more than 25,000 to 35,000 Jews in Western Europe. These figures are hard to reconcile with other studies showing that by the 17th century there were hundreds of thousands of Jews in Eastern Europe.

"...Some scholars believe the roots of Yiddish, and even the Ashkenazic people themselves, lie much farther east. In his 1976 book, The Thirteenth Tribe, Arthur Koestler made the startling suggestion, never taken seriously by linguists, that the Eastern European Jews were not really Semitic -- that they were largely descended from the Turkish Khazars, who converted en masse to Judaism in medieval times.

"More recently, Koestler's controversial thesis has been revived and expanded in a 1993 book, The Ashkenazic 'Jews': A Slavo-Turkic People in Search of a Jewish Identity (Slavica Publishers), by Dr. Paul Wexler, a Tel Aviv University linguist.

"Wexler uses a reconstruction of Yiddish to argue that it began as a Slavic language whose vocabulary was largely replaced with German words. Going even further, he contends that the Ashkenazic Jews are predominantly converted Slavs and Turks who merged with a tiny population of Palestinian Jews from the Diaspora."

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/khazars.html

[Roman]

You have admitted that the  past popes were not aware of the work of Hungarian Jew, Arthur Koestler  and Tel Aviv University linguist professor, Dr. Paul Wexler (not  "anti-Jewish apologists," as you alledge), so why do you offer this  challenge when you already know the answer.

 
  The answer is no, then.
 
  Pretty much what I guessed.
 
  By the way, maybe, with all this niceness towards the Jewish people,  pope Innocent was an infiltrated agent of the B'nai B'rith, huh?

[MauricePinay]

By the way, maybe, with all this niceness towards the Jewish people, pope Innocent was an infiltrated agent of the B'nai B'rith, huh?

 

 

The point of Pope Innocent IV's statement is that Talmudic Jews should not be physically harmed or subject to false accusations, which goes without saying. Nobody should suffer these ills.

 

What you fail to mention, and what is relevant to this discussion, is that Pope Innocent IV's words should in no way be taken to exonerate the Talmudic religion, which is apparently the point you are attempting to make.

 

Here is a letter from Pope Innocent IV (who was a canon lawyer) written to King Louis IX in 1244 regarding Talmudic Jews:

 

Innocent, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to his cherished son Louis, illustrious king of France, greeting and apostolic benediction. The impious perfidy of the Jews--from whose hearts because of the enormity of their crimes our Redeemer did not lift the veil but still permits them to remain, as is fitting, in the blindness which is characteristic of Israel--not regarding the fact that Christian piety receives them only out of pity and patiently endures dwelling together with them, commits those enormities which stupefy hearers and horrify narrators. For these ingrates to the Lord Jesus Christ, who patiently awaits their conversion out of the richness of His long-suffering, showing no shame for their fault nor respecting the honor of the Christian faith, and omitting or scorning the Mosaic law and the prophets, follow certain traditions of their seniors concerning which the Lord rebukes them in the Gospel, saying: Why do you transgress the mandate of God and irritate Him by your traditions, teaching human doctrines and mandates? [Matthew 15;9]

Upon this sort of traditions, which in Hebrew are called the Talmud--and there is a great book among them exceeding the text of the Bible in length, in which are manifest blasphemies against God and Christ and the blessed Virgin, intricate fables, erroneous abuses, and unheard-of stupidities--they nourish and teach their sons and render them utterly alien from the doctrine of the law and the prophets, fearing lest, if they knew the truth, which is in the law and the prophets, and which testifies openly that the only begotten son of God will come in the flesh, they would be converted to the faith and humbly return to their Redeemer. And not content with these things, they make Christian women nurses of their sons in contumely of the Christian faith, with whom they commit many shameful things. On which account the faithful should be afraid lest they incur divine wrath while they unworthily allow them to perpetrate acts which bring confusion upon our faith.

And although our cherished son, the chancellor of Paris, and the doctors teaching at Paris in holy writ, by the mandate of pope Gregory, our predecessor of happy memory, after reading and examining the said abusive book and certain others with all their glosses, publicly burned them in the presence of clergy and people to the confusion of the perfidy of the Jews, as we have seen stated in their letters, to whom you as catholic king and most Christian prince rendered suitable aid and favor in this, for which we commend your royal excellency with praises in the Lord and pursue with acts of grace: because nevertheless the profane abuse of the Jews themselves has not yet quieted nor has persecution yet given them understanding, we earnestly ask, admonish, and beseech your highness in the Lord Jesus Christ that against detestable and enormous excesses of this sort committed in contumely of the Creator and in injury to the Christian name, as you piously began, you laudably continue to proceed with due severity. And that you order both the aforesaid abusive books condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a handmaid, but as servants condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as servants of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises. Given at the Lateran, May 9, in the first year of our pontificate. (Pope Innocent IV, May 9, 1244 Letter to King Louis IX of France) 

  

[Quo_Vadis_Petre]

Roman, you forget that many Popes, including Innocent III and Innocent IV,  who forbade Jews to hold public offices, as they were afraid that the Jews would repay back this privilege by harming Christians. Thus, he protected them, but he also controlled them from doing any harm to Christ's Mystical Body.

[KyrieEleison]

MaurcePinay:

All of the noncatholics and ambivalent and indifferent Catholics can consider themselves enemies of the Church. They are all in the same boat, just some are in first class and some are in storage.

[Roman]

MaurcePinay:

All of the noncatholics and  ambivalent and indifferent Catholics can consider themselves enemies of  the Church. They are all in the same boat, just some are in first class  and some are in storage.

 
  That is true, in a sense.
 
  Which is why I do not understand "Maurice Pinay"'s benevolence towards  much, much more dangerous, really dangerous non-Catholics, historically  and in current affairs, such as, for instance, the Mohameddans.
 
  Nonetheless, though we must be "wise as serpents", we must always adopt  the Christian attitude towards our enemies, real or imaginary.