SSPV/SSPX

[BarJonas]

Hey... haven't read every post on this thread yet, but who wrote about "seducing" and "sneaky" sedes. Which post (poster) is that?

 

Thanks,

 

BarJonas

[BarJonas]

Allllllrighty, then  Thanks, MaryBonita.

 

Have a really good day!

 

God Bless...

 

BarJonas

[JubilateDeo]

Bar, that is just the impression some give of sedevacantists. I have noticed a trend that some look at the very notion of sedevacantism and have a reaction similar to a secularist hearing "anti-semite."

 

Sedes cant think... Sedes will try to ram their heresy down your throat... Sedes infiltrate SSPX parishes and "infect" them... Etc.

 

I was using the terms sneaky and seducing in a rather sarcastic manner. In retrospect, I am thinking it was a little uncharitable.

[BarJonas]

Stephen,

 

I don't think that was at all sarcastic or uncharitable. On the contrary, quite an apt description. I see (and have seen for some time) that trend as well, and I believe the lack of charity resides in those who "shoot first and ask questions later", or just "shoot" and walk back into their comfortable little mindsets thinking how proud God must be of them. That's a mindset we all need to reject.

 

They've got a 2-for-1 sale on asbestos dungarees down at Sears. Check it out  ...

 

Ad Jesum per Mariam,

 

BarJonas

[MauricePinay]

What better rule-of-thumb would you have than your own experience?

The truth.

As for piety I am impressed by the piety expressed by certain people who adhere to this error, but I am also impressed with the quality of action by some members of the Masonic Lodges and also the piety expressed by many protestants.

 

This is a pointless statement. We're not discussing piety or quality of action.

I thought that I explained the use of the term "Luciferian" and thus justified it. The one creature who has an undying hatred for mankind is Lucifer. We are the cause of his fall. He would lead us into a false Church if he can.

 

You've made the claim. Now you are obligated to prove that the SSPV, which practices the Catholic faith exactly as it was practiced in 1955, has made no claims of separation, and has not elected their own pope, has set up a "false church."

 

I truly did not mean to slander anyone. It's the concept of sedevacantism and the practice which I am addressing.

 

And isn't there a "one and only sedvacantist thread" where one can slander sedevacantists with absurd epithets such as "luciferian" to their hearts content? Isn't this thread meant to discuss the SSPV and the SSPX?

 

This is not unprecedented. The Courts of Inquisition had to deal with false priests and nuns in the 13th century. They were the Fraticelli and the False-Apostles. They were very pious, wore the habit of St. Francis, had an order of Nuns but would not recognize the reigning Pope and elected their own who was infact an anti-Pope. It was very confusing to the Catholics at the time thus the matter was brought before the Courts.

 

The primary problem which the Inquisition was set up to deal with was Judaizers--Marranos and Cryptojews who had infiltrated the church and were seeking to destroy the Catholic religion from within.

 

You would attempt to spin the Inquisition into support of your personal crusade against sedevacantists and your theory that they are "luciferian," when the USCCB has stated that Rabbinic Judaism is from God? I suppose that I shouldn't be surprised that you avoid confronting my point.

 

Who are the real "luciferians" who have set up a "false church"? Is it the traditional Catholic society which practices the Catholic faith as it had been practiced for centuries? Or is it the New Order, half composed of homosexuals who tell us that Rabbinic Judaism, the religion of the Pharisees who killed our Lord and His Apostles, is "of God."? 

 

Who's nature do you believe is reflected in this New Order statement? God's, or Lucifer's?

 

Rabbinic Judaism, which developed after the destruction of the Temple, must also be "of God" (Reflections on Covenant and Mission, §13, USCCB, Aug. 12, 2002) 

 

I'd be interested to hear your response to this point.

 

In general both genders need to be attracted to a spiritual source to maintain balance.

 

Could you cite a single Catholic source which supports this strange belief? It sounds rather Eastern to me.

 

If "woman's intuition" is a valid indicator in spiritual matters, then I'm going to quit this Catholic stuff and go join a Kabbala group or some yoga-meditation-new age ashram, because that's where the intuition of most women is leading them. It certainly isn't leading the majority of women into traditional Catholic chapels.

 

Can you see how absurd this reasoning is, and why the Catholic Catechisms state nothing about "woman's intuition"?

 

I honestly can't believe that I've wasted this much effort on this absurd argument.

 

 

[BarJonas]

Vox... can you find a cover for the sandbox ....?

 

MP... this will help us to gain more patience. Somebody on this site has already attained the fullness of that virtue... I know, 'cause I "fenced" with him earlier.

 

I'll take 2 laughters, a glass of wine, and some earmuffs...please.

 

 

BarJonas

[Marybonita]

Maurice et al: I didn't set myself up as St. Anthony, the Hammer of Heretics. I don't pretend to be anything other than what I am - a Catholic traditional trying to make it through the present minefield of error. My thoughts are mostly my own - thus the unique aspect I guess. They are observations of the sedevacantist community over the past 8 or so years and the results of sorting through their/your many claims. And Maurice I am addressing both your points and others in my posts. That's why some of them have not been raised by you in particular.

And yes the Inquisition, according to William Thomas Walsh who drew his research from the recorded documents by the Grand Inquisitors had a lot on their plate. Some of it was the "conversos" but other matters were as urgent:

The Pseudo-Apostles were one of the most troublesome sects. Their doctrine was first formulated, about 1260 by Gerard Segarelli of Parma, who, after a vain attempt to join the Franciscan Order, and a formal abjuration of his error relapsed and was burned at Parma in 1300. His successor as "Pope" of this curious order of anarchists, for such they were, was Dulcinus Novariensis, the bastard son of a priest, who had a woman named Margarita as "his consort in crime and heresy."

Clement V preached a crusade against them, and they were both burned, but the sect continued to grow, and spread from Lombardy into southern France. Later the anarchists fled to Spain.

The fundamental dogma of the Pseudo-Apostoli was one that would have made them a a menace to any society, ancient, medieval or modern: they owed obedience they said to no mortal man. Being in a state of evangelical and apostolic poverty and perfection, they were subject only to God. They claimed that the authority which Christ gave to Saint Peter and the other apostles had passed, not to the Roman Catholic Church which they called "a reprobate church without fruit" and the "great whore of Babylon"
but through their founder Gerard Segarelli to them. They were the only true Christians and led the perfect life. They had the power, denied even to Catholic priests of dissolving marriages.

A man could divoce his wife without her consent or a woman divorce her husband without his consent to enter their order.

Outside their ranks there was no possible salvation. Certainly there was none according to them in the Roman Catholic Church; but unlike other heretics, they made some curious exceptions. The primitive purity of the Church had continued in the Catholic Church, they admitted, up to the time of Saint Sylvester. After him all the Popes were "prevaricators and seducers," with the single exception of "Frater Pietro de Martone, who was called Pope Celestinus."

In 1294 an emaciated Benedictine hermit, eighty-nine years old, who lived on Monte Morone in the Abruzze area of Italy with an iron chain around his body emulating Saint John the Baptis, had had a revelation that if the Cardinals, at deadlock for more than two years after the death of Nicholas IV, did not elect a new Pope within four months, God would visit great calamities upon His Church.

A sudden desire swept through the Sacred College to make the hermit Pope and the poor prophet was startled one day in July by the approach to his solitude of three eminent prelates, followed by a huge crowd of monks and laymen, who had come to tell him of his election.

He yielded after many tears to the will of God, entered Rome clad in sackcloth, on an ass, led by two kings, and was Pope for six months, during which he set a beautiful example of evangelical poverty by sleeping tin a little hut on the floor of the Vatican and on the other hand proved himself a complete failure as an administrator for he could not say no, and sometimes gave the same benefice to four or five different applicants.

At the end of the year, he resigned and fled to the mountsins. His successor confined him to prison,  where he died. He was canonized by Pope Clement V.

The False Apostles were often very successful in passing themselves off on simple people as saints. Imitating Saint Francis and the friars they used to go singing along the roads or through towns.  They used to recite in a loud voice the Pater Noster, the Ave Maria and the Credo. They were always saying Vigilate et orate or Penitentiam agite, appropinquabit enim regnum caelorum. They even had the effrontery to sing the Salve Regina. But their conception of chastity was very different from that for which true Franciscans implored the help of the Queen of Heaven.

Ducinus, second leader of the "Congregation," whom Pope Clement V denouned as "a son of Belial" and an "enemy of the human race," used to call his companion Margarita his "sister in Christ."

When she was captured, this "sister" was found to be with child; and she and Dulcinus asserted to their followers that she had conceived by the Holy Ghost. Likewise the fellow apostles of Dulcinus used to take about with them women whom they called "sorores in Christo", and "used to lie in beds with them, asserting mendaciously and falsely that they were troubled by no temptations of the flesh", being of course Perfect.



The Fraticelli - Of all the fanatics or fakirs who made capital out of the tremendous popularity of Saint Francis and his friars these were among the most troublesome.The called themselves the Poor Brothers of Penance of the Third Order of Saint Francis or Beguins in France. Some had actually been members of the Franciscans.

Usually they went about both men and women in brown sackcloth habits sometimes with hoods sometimes without.

They had an elaborate and fantastic eschatology which promised the early destruction of the Roman Catholic church. Like most anarchists, they distinguished between two churches the material Church of Rome and the spiritual congregation which of course was their own assembly of saints. Why they considered themselves more immaterial than Catholics does not seem clear - a later Inquisiterial document describes them as generally sleek and well-fed.

They were much interested in the Antichrist whose appearance some of them promised in 1325 or 1330 or 1335. All would be destroyed except the members of their sect and those they would convert form the twelve tribes of Israel.

They had the sorry distinction of being the first professing Christians in the West to challenge the infallibility of the Pope and the first to proclaim the modern heresy of the totalitarian state - though was but a reappearance of the worship demanded by the pagan emperors of Rome.

Characters of the Inquisition pages 25 -80
William Thomas Walsh
TAN Books
_______________________________________________________________

I have no joy in putting these facts before you. Hilaire Belloc described 6 main heresies from which all others flow. There is nothing new in sedevacantism except perhaps the idea that the situation in the Church is the most compelling.

I am also not accusing the sedes of every vile heresy listed above. It's used merely to point to the mixture of error which is simply a replay on certain themes.

Finally, I think that sedevacantism would have to point you directly to the "true" Pope if you reject the one sitting on the Throne of Peter in Rome. Just because you have not named him does not mean that someone is not in your mind. No Catholic Church can be without a Pope - even a false one.

In JMJ

[MauricePinay]

Right.

 

No response to any of my points, and a bunch of new noise is introduced which has nothing to do with the SSPV or the SSPX.

 

You obviously intend to keep spinning this discussion off until every topic under the sun has been brought in to confuse matters--"snowballing," they call it.

 

Have fun discussing the Inquisition with someone else, in another thread. 

This thread is about the SSPV and the SSPX.

[VoxClamantis]

 

The topic of sedevacantism belongs in the one thread set up for that purpose, and I thank all who've gone along -- or will go along -- with that rule. Carry on!

[ernestus]

 

The topic of sedevacantism belongs in the one thread set up for that purpose, and I thank all who've gone along -- or will go along -- with that rule. Carry on!

"Do Not Make Us Use These!"