WHY do neo-Catholics hate "no salvation outside the Church"?

[MarysChild]

I told the Novus Ordo Catholics on babycenter.com about "no salvation outside the Church" and at least one person kept telling me to keep my opinion to myself. They quoted EWTN to try to convince me that I'm wrong. I told them no, it's not my opinion, it's Church teaching. We DO need to pray for the conversion of everybody - their Protestant friends and family, the Jews, etc. Just today someone quoted Vatican II (I hate Vatican II) to try to say that Church teaching changed. Well, Vatican II was a horrible mistake. I even quoted JPII to say that there's no salvation outside the Church. (thank God for Google!) Why are they so scared of that teaching? Is it because they'd have to realize how grim the picture really is, that you have to be in the Catholic Church when you die and be in the state of grace to go to heaven? That most of the earth's population is going to hell because they're not Catholic? (tell me if I'm getting this wrong) That they actually do need to try to convert their Protestant and other non-Catholic acquaintances instead of admiring their faith and telling them they're fine and dancy and whatnot? God help me - I'm too pissed off to pray.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

[tradcatholicmom]

I think it's all of the above, that, and NO Catholics take a perverse pride in "not appearing fundamentalist".  If we had half the guts a lot of fundamentalists have, the Church would not be in the state it's in.

 

And the fact is, JPII's words and actions have made this dogma all but null and void for those who follow him (and i chose that wording purposefully) and to question him on this is to make a tough choice.

[Jadesfire20]

I told the Novus Ordo Catholics on babycenter.com about "no salvation outside the Church" and at least one person kept telling me to keep my opinion to myself. They quoted EWTN to try to convince me that I'm wrong. I told them no, it's not my opinion, it's Church teaching. We DO need to pray for the conversion of everybody - their Protestant friends and family, the Jews, etc. Just today someone quoted Vatican II (I hate Vatican II) to try to say that Church teaching changed. Well, Vatican II was a horrible mistake. I even quoted JPII to say that there's no salvation outside the Church. (thank God for Google!) Why are they so scared of that teaching? Is it because they'd have to realize how grim the picture really is, that you have to be in the Catholic Church when you die and be in the state of grace to go to heaven? That most of the earth's population is going to hell because they're not Catholic? (tell me if I'm getting this wrong) That they actually do need to try to convert their Protestant and other non-Catholic acquaintances instead of admiring their faith and telling them they're fine and dancy and whatnot? God help me - I'm too pissed off to pray.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

 

Hi Corinne,

 

That's just silly! There was a series on EWTN called "Does the Church Still Teach That?" that discussed several beliefs that Catholics mistakingly believe have changed. There was an ENTIRE episode devoted to the teaching of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" and how the Church STILL does teach that.  I guess they only watch EWTN when they say things they want to hear

 

I think sometimes when people hear EENS they mistake it for Feeneyism

 

I say get yourself the documents of Lateran Council IV (where EENS was defined by the POPE himself) and use it as proof. Things defined by the pope can't change. Look here: http://www.dailycatholic.org/history/councils.htm

Though, it may be useless because some people think VII changed the previous 1965 years of teaching

 

 BTW, weren't you on CAF a while back? What happened?

[MarysChild]

I was kicked off CAF for linking to this webpage (which I typed up from a pamphlet at church):

http://cora.dashjr.org/trad/tlm.html

A super moderator told me to "stop linking to radical traditional sites". I told her to stop harassing traditional Catholics. I got banned.
What's even worse is CAF's answer in the section where you can ask them questions about Church teaching. Someone asked if it's OK to go to a SSPX chapel and they said no, they're schismatic. They need lots of prayers and God's mercy for leading souls astray.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne

[Jarrod_D]

The only sure way to heaven is through the Catholic Church.  Are others who are not formal members of the Catholic Church saved?  I don't know, thats up to God, what I do know is that if they are saved it is because of something extra-ordinary. God sent His son to save mankind by dying on the cross and establishing His Church.  All those who believe and are baptized will be saved, all those who do not will be condemned (Mark 16:16) This is not fundamentalism or any other slogan-ism, this is the basis of Christianity!  The Catholic Church has not made these claims, Christ has!  The whole New Testament is full of scripture to support it.

 

We DO need to pray for the conversion of everybody

 

Living in Novus Ordoland I guess its hard to see that this is a DUH statement! Christ said "I am the way ... no one can go to the Father except through me"  If someone doesn't know Christ, then we need to let them KNOW!

 

 

Jarrod

 

 

[VoxClamantis]

 

That's just silly! There was a series on EWTN called "Does the Church Still Teach That?" that discussed several beliefs that Catholics mistakingly believe have changed. There was an ENTIRE episode devoted to the teaching of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" and how the Church STILL does teach that.  I guess they only watch EWTN when they say things they want to hear

 

I just had to hear it, so found the EWTN program Jadesfire mentioned. You can hear it here:

 

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=doeschurchteach06.ra

[Vandaler]

That's just silly! There was a series on EWTN called "Does the Church Still Teach That?" that discussed several beliefs that Catholics mistakingly believe have changed. There was an ENTIRE episode devoted to the teaching of "Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus" and how the Church STILL does teach that.  I guess they only watch EWTN when they say things they want to hear

Right on... I have only been exposed to post-Vatican II teaching and do understand that salvation comes from the Catholic Church only.

 

I believe generally, that the further from the center you get on the Conservative <-----> Progressive scale, nuances and shades of gray are conveniently dropped.

 

It is clear that Jesus said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matt. 12:30), and in the Catechism chapter 846 says: ‘Outside the Church there is no salvation.’

 

But, (here comes the dreaded but necessary nuance) the gospels also says: "John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.’ But Jesus said, ‘Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us" (Mark 9:38–40)

 

So, even though salvation comes from the Catholic Church alone, some (who? dunno) are to various degrees, unknowingly linked to It/Him has Jesus said himself.

 

Éric

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vandaler]

 

 

I just had to hear it, so found the EWTN program Jadesfire mentioned. You can hear it here:

 

http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?rafile=doeschurchteach06.ra

 

Thank you for finding this excellent program.

[27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?]

http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/pius/pcreed09.htm

 

27 Q: Can one be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church?

A: No, no one can be saved outside the Catholic, Apostolic Roman Church, just as no one could be saved from the flood outside the Ark of Noah, which was a figure of the Church.

28 Q: How, then, were the Patriarchs of old, the Prophets, and the other just men of the Old Testament, saved?

A: The just of the Old Testament were saved in virtue of the faith they had in Christ to come, by means of which they spiritually belonged to the Church.

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?

A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

30 Q: Suppose that a man is a member of the Catholic Church, but does not put her teaching into practice, will he be saved?

A: He who is a member of the Catholic Church and does not put her teaching into practice is a dead member, and hence will not be saved; for towards the salvation of an adult not only Baptism and faith are required, but, furthermore, works in keeping with faith.

31 Q: Are we obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us?

A: Yes, we are obliged to believe all the truths the Church teaches us, and Jesus Christ declares that he who does not believe is already condemned.

32 Q: Are we also obliged to do all that the Church commands?

A: Yes, we are obliged to do all that the Church commands, for Jesus Christ has said to the Pastors of the Church: "He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you, despises Me."

33 Q: Can the Church err in what she proposes for our belief?

A: No, the Church cannot err in what she proposes for our belief, since according to the promise of Jesus Christ she is unfailingly assisted by the Holy Ghost.

34 Q: Is the Catholic Church infallible, then?

A: Yes, the Catholic Church is infallible, and hence those who reject her definitions lose the faith and become heretics.

35 Q: Can the Catholic Church be destroyed or perish?

A: No; the Catholic Church may be persecuted, but she can never be destroyed or perish. She will last till the end of the world, because Jesus Christ, as He promised, will be with her till the end of time.

36 Q: Why is the Catholic Church so persecuted?

A: The Catholic Church is so persecuted because even her Divine Founder, Jesus Christ, was thus persecuted, and because she reproves vice, combats the passions, and condemns all acts of injustice and all error.

37 Q: Has a Catholic any other duties towards the Church?

A: Every Catholic ought to have a boundless love for the Church, ought to consider himself infinitely honored and happy in belonging to her, and ought to labor for her glory and advancement by every means in his power.

[VoxClamantis]

 

 

So, even though salvation comes from the Catholic Church alone, some (who? dunno) are to various degrees, unknowingly linked to It/Him has Jesus said himself.
 

Éric

 

I like this analogy -- in fact, I like it so much I wish I'd written it. It comes from Harold E. Welitz and I found it in an article at Seattle Catholic. He compares those who are glib about the idea that some might be saved even though they are not formal members of the Church with the sort of person who'd encourage children to play with loaded guns. He wrote:

 

Let's say that a father kept a loaded gun in the house. Now, certainly it has occurred since the invention of the revolver that a bullet has failed to fire when the trigger was pulled. Therefore, based on this possibility should the father continually remind his children that if they play with a gun and shoot at each other, it may not go off? Would that be a wise and prudent father, one who truly cares or his children? If the father continually discussed the possibility that the gun may not go off if the trigger were pulled, would he be misleading his children? Yes! Although what he is saying is not false, it is deceptive because it implies that something that is rare is actually likely. The result will be that the children will become more negligent in playing with loaded guns, which most likely will kill one of them. Should the father not say: "Do not play with a loaded gun, whatever you do! If you play with a loaded gun, someone will get killed." A wise and prudent father may realize there are a very slight percentage of bullets that are defective, but he knows it is not wise to continually remind his children of this, lest they become forgetful of the dangers of playing with loaded guns.

 

I break down his analogy like this:

 

1. all salvation comes through Christ and His Church, and all Catholics must accept this or place themselves outside the Church;
    
2. the way of life passed down by the Church is the normative way of salvation (and necessary for the path of perfection). We are commanded to preach and teach, and it is only through the Church that we are helped by the grace of the Sacraments;
    
3. the ultimate disposition of souls, though, is left to God alone, and only He can say who and who is not saved in the end -- i.e., only He can know who is saved by Christ and His Church, the Church outside of which there is NO salvation;
    
4. knowing that it is POSSIBLE for someone who doesn't label himself as "Catholic" to be saved doesn't obviate doing what we are told by Christ to do: to preach and teach the Gospel, which includes preaching the normative requirement of formal membership in His Church. Knowing that God is not bound by the Sacraments doesn't mean that we are not bound to them.
    
5. To forget #4 and to just sit around and "hope" and "wish" that the merely possible happens is the equivalent of letting children play with loaded guns. To not stress the UTMOST importance of Christ's Church and His COMMANDS to us is to risk others' souls -- and it is to sin ourselves, thereby risking our own souls.
    
6. To forget #4 and not only "hope" and "wish" but to actively go on and on about how "invincibly ignorant" Protestants and Jews and Muslims can possibly be saved is to not only LET children play with guns, but it's to ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE them to play with guns. (and nevermind that the definition of "invincibly ignorant" is far, far, far too broad among neo-Catholics these days!)

I think his analogy is perfect!