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Author Topic: Is the host in a NO just bread?  (Read 2885 times)
Vandaler
Guest
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2005, 10:53:PM »


Quote
How is refusing to attend a NO because of what I've read about it (Michael Davies, "The Great Sacrilege", etc.) not trusting in Jesus's promise?

 

Well, it is not where you choose to attend mass that amounts in distrust. 

 

It is rather your belief that Christ would allow so many Catholics all over the world to be denied the fruits of communion that they request, desire and need when they attend the NO mass.

 

I have no problem that you attend TLM... through my wife, I do to.

 

I'm willing to concede that the liturgy has been degraded, and that some cleaning up is necessary. That would be through men error.

 

But, if you go as far in saying that all the NO mass are indeed invalid... then one can only conclude that Jesus would have abandoned it's Church to corruption.  

 

It is I who do not want to offend, realizing that I'm sailing against the wind on this board.

Take good care Corrine

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Montreal_Marisa
Member

Posts: 730


« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2005, 11:06:PM »

Quote from: Vandaler


Quote
How is refusing to  attend a NO because of what I've read about it (Michael Davies, "The  Great Sacrilege", etc.) not trusting in Jesus's promise?

Well, it is not where you choose to attend mass that amounts in distrust.  

It  is rather your belief that Christ would allow so many Catholics all  over the world to be denied the fruits of communion that they request,  desire and need when they attend the NO mass.

I have no problem that you attend TLM... through my wife, I do to.

I'm  willing to concede that the liturgy has been degraded, and that some  cleaning up is necessary. That would be through men error.

But,  if you go as far in saying that all the NO mass are indeed invalid...  then one can only conclude that Jesus would have abandoned it's Church  to corruption.

It is I who do not want to offend, realizing that I'm sailing against the wind on this board.

Take good care Corrine

 
  Oh Eric, Eric, Eric.  What is with your tagline, is that a jab at  Traditionalism?  I don't think I'll be following Wayne Gretsky in  matters concerning the Catholic Church. 
 
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Vandaler
Guest
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2005, 11:20:PM »


Quote
Oh Eric, Eric, Eric.  What is with your tagline, is that a jab at Traditionalism?  I don't think I'll be following Wayne Gretsky in matters concerning the Catholic Church. 

 

 A jab no... not at all. I just rather be candid on my position.

 

There are just some rather surprising pearl of wisdom that crawl out of the most amazing places. Most of the time, these occur when stating the obvious.

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RabidWolverine
Guest
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 04:17:AM »

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the essential words of consecration are "This is My Body, This is My Blood"  Beyond that, all that is needed for a valid Mass/consecration is a validly ordained priest; proper form, matter and intent. 

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HMiS
Member

Gender: Male
Posts: 6,172



« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 04:38:AM »

Quote

But, if you go as far in saying that all the NO mass are indeed invalid... then one can only conclude that Jesus would have abandoned it's Church to corruption. 

 

This was not said, Éric. (E-grave pour un nom scandinavien?)

 

It is correct, that the intention in the Novus Ordo Mass, if the priest would follow the heretical definition of 1970's Institutio Generalis, is incorrect and would invalidate the Mass.

 

This has nothing to do as with saying that Our Lord would have left His Church. This is incorrect: the Tridentine Mass was never abrogated and can be used freely and IS used, while the majority of Eastern - now also degenerating - Catholic liturgies have not yet been protestantized and thus are always valid.

 

Concerning the priestly ordination rite of 1968. The validity of that is questioned by sedevacantists, but Michael Davies sufficiently said it is valid, if done with proper intention, though all the new rites have defects, are protestantized, and if stripped from the essential prayer and intention are invalid. But never in se. They are valid in themselves.

 

But Cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci and a group of Roman theologians sincerely said in their "Short Critical Study of the Novus Ordo Missae" (Ottaviani Intervention), that the New Mass might be invalid, if the priest would take over the spirit and the intention of its authors. Did they think Christ's Church was defective or were they saying Christ left His Church?

They also said implicitly, that true Catholics would see themselves in front of the difficult dilemma, that they would have to choose the Old Mass and avoid the New Mass, because it "no longer wants to express the Catholic faith as defined infallibly by the Council of Trent, to which however Roman Catholic conscience is bound".

 

But as said, read this definition, written by Abbé Georges de Nantes in 1975, and still valid and correct:

 

http://www.crc-internet.org/Mass.htm

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„Ja, Ja, wie Gott es will. Gott lohne es Euch. Gott schütze das liebe Vaterland. Für Ihn weiterarbeiten... oh, Du lieber Heiland!” ("Yes, Yes, as God wills it. May God repay it to you. May God protect the dear fatherland. Go on working for him... oh, you dear Savior!") - Clemens August Cardinal von Galen, his last words.


Vandaler
Guest
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2005, 09:28:AM »

 

 

Quote
This was not said, Éric. (E-grave pour un nom scandinavien?)

 

Éric is French... I'm French Canadian.

 

Hence the occasional grammar error.

 

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Brennus
Guest
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 10:38:AM »

Don't worry about grammar errors Eric because English has no grammar, it only thinks it does.

French is a fine language. I wish I spoke it.

Latin is the best.

Please accept my belated welcome.

Brennus
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MarysChild
Guest
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 11:07:AM »

Thanks, HMiS. Here are more links:

http://cora.dashjr.org/trad/tlm.html
http://cora.dashjr.org/trad/valid.html
http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/critical_study_of_the_new_mass.htm

Since I go to the TLM and don't hear what the priest says to consecrate the host (I might be wrong about that; I've only been a trad Cath for a few months), I don't know what the words are that have to be said.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
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Jarrod_D
Member

Posts: 786


« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2005, 12:44:PM »

Quote

We read "The Great Sacrilege" and we'd rather stay home, read the Bible & pray the rosary than go to it if we can't drive an hour to the TLM.

 

This sounds very Protestant. I'd rather stay at home than go to the Liturgy of the Church ...  We do of course realize that the NO IS the Liturgy of the Church ... all of the bishops and the Pope Celebrate this Liturgy. However defective it may be, this IS the liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

Quote

Besides, after worshipping at the TLM for a few months now, it would probably make me really sad to go to a NO and see the lack of an altar rail (especially in the abbey church, which was built for the TLM), extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, no Confession during Mass (like there is at our SSPX parish during one Sunday Mass), immodesty, teenagers who like like they're there because they have to be, and more.

 

Isn't there more to the Catholic faith than these?

 

I was taught when I first became Catholic that to miss mass was a serious sin.  A mortal sin.  A sin which required me to go to Confession (whether that is on Saturday night or Sunday morning it doesn't make a difference) before I could receive communion again. I was also taught that to die in the state of mortal sin would land me in hell.  I think we are going to have a hard time explaining to God at our judgment about how he needs to read Michael Davies or the Great Sacrilege.  Do these books and authors carry more weight than every Catholic Bishop the world over and the Pope?

 

It seems odd to me that we search history and we define those who rejected the pope and the Church councils as heretics(Like Nestorius, Arius, Luther); yet we feel that we can do the same in these times after Vatican II.   

 

 

Jarrod

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MarysChild
Guest
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2005, 12:55:PM »

I've been wanting to go to Mass now for two Sundays in a row (we were able to go almost every Sunday in a row before that - we drive over an hour to get to it); the first Sunday, Luke went to bed too late so I couldn't wake him up in time to drive us to Mass (he's a very sound sleeper and I was exhausted), and the second time was last Sunday, when our car broke down. Even if we were heretics and felt it's OK to go to the NO a mile away, I can't walk two blocks without my back and legs hurting a lot and we only have one bike. I know very well that I need to Confess before I receive Communion. Don't call me a Protestant when I am a Catholic.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
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