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Author Topic: Clean your monitor  (Read 1483 times)
InquisitorGeneralis
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« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2005, 04:18:PM »

How so?
 
 
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LukeDashJr
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« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2005, 04:21:PM »

Quote from: InquisitorGeneralis
How so?

Do I need to go through it and highlight every part violating your rights? For a start, it is unavailable in its native code form necessary for you to exercise your right to modify information.
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InquisitorGeneralis
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« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2005, 05:39:PM »

Quote from: LukeDashJr
Do I need to go through it and highlight every  part violating your rights? For a start, it is unavailable in its  native code form necessary for you to exercise your right to modify  information.
 
 But I just don't see how that would  violate my rights. In what sense would I have the right to modify  information, and what information should I have the right to  modify?  I really want to understand what you're getting at  here.  Can you please explain it to me?
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DominusTecum
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« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2005, 06:05:PM »

IG: I think (correct me if I'm wrong on this lukedashjr) he's getting at the idea that the software isn't open source, and is therefore immoral since essentially it's your property, be it freely given to you as "freeware/free download" by Macromedia, or you bought it in the store. Therefore, it's your property, but Macromedia will not release the source code so that you can then modify it according to your tastes. For example, I just bought the book "Iota Unum." I have this book, and the pages themselves could be considered the source code. Now, as it's my book, I have the moral right to underline passages, tear out pages I don't like, etc. However, with the software, you can't do that, because you don't have the source.

 

I don't know that I agree, though. I'm not particularly well-versed in moral theology, aside from what seems to me to be "common sense Catholic" type stuff. It seems to me that you consent to use it, therefore, you agree to the company's terms. In another thread, Marisa was telling all of us about her dog, and how if she didn't show it by the time it was a certain age, she was required by the contract she signed to have it neutered. She agreed to the contract, therefore she is obligated to neuter it if the situation ends up requiring it. I see this as the same way; you buy/download freely the software, and when you install it you are required to assent to an EULA (End User Liscense Agreement) to continue. In this EULA, among other things, some of which are objectionable but nobody knows about because they don't read them, it probably says something to the effect that you have no rights to decompile, disassemble, reverse-engineer, or otherwise modify the source code or application which you are installing. Therefore, since by accepting "yes" or "accept" or "I agree" on the EULA, you submitted to the contract, and consequently have no rights to mess with them. By agreeing, you forfeited that right. If you used a hack of some kind to get around hitting "I accept," then you would still be forbidden from doing it because you didn't explicitly agree to the contract inherent in the software, therefore your legal right to install and use it would be null and void, and it would be essentially "stolen," even if you paid for the software. Of course, this last part was all hypothetical because I've never heard of anyone using a hack to get around accepting a EULA.

 

Does this explain things, IG?

 

 

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LukeDashJr
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« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2005, 07:18:PM »

Quote from: InquisitorGeneralis
In what sense would I have the right to modify  information,

In the sense that modifying information is as natural as free thought and that it is impossible for you to not modify information at all.
Quote from: InquisitorGeneralis
and what information should I have the right to  modify?

The Flash interpretor program.
Quote from: InquisitorGeneralis
I really want to understand what you're getting at  here.  Can you please explain it to me?

I can try, though it may not be all that easy with modern society brainwashing people into accepting the unjust Copyright Laws directly contrary to these natural laws.
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MarysChild
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« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2005, 08:13:PM »

This story, "Right to Read", by Richard Stallman might help you understand:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
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LukeDashJr
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« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2005, 08:30:PM »

Quote from: DominusTecum
IG: I think (correct me if I'm wrong on this lukedashjr) he's getting at the idea that the software isn't open source,

Software can be open source and still have an immoral license. Though you could always violate the unjust Copyright Law in this case by ignoring the license. Smile
Generally, morally acceptable licenses are termed 'free software'-- note, not 'gratis' as 'free' is often [ab]used as, but 'free' as in 'freedom'.
Quote from: DominusTecum
and is therefore immoral since essentially it's your property, be it freely given to you as "freeware/free download" by Macromedia, or you bought it in the store.

I wouldn't quite say something is immoral because it is your property, but maybe it was a misconstruction of your sentence...
Quote from: DominusTecum
Therefore, it's your property, but Macromedia will not release the source code so that you can then modify it according to your tastes. For example, I just bought the book "Iota Unum." I have this book, and the pages themselves could be considered the source code. Now, as it's my book, I have the moral right to underline passages, tear out pages I don't like, etc.

That would be the reason (or a everyday-English translation of it, anyway) it's immoral.
Note that you could also translate the book (software equivalent would be porting the program to a different API), continue it (there are many examples of this in the Star Wars area; software equiv. is adding features), or adapt it to another medium such as video (software equiv: refactor the UI).
Quote from: DominusTecum
However, with the software, you can't do that, because you don't have the source.

Correct.
Quote from: DominusTecum
It seems to me that you consent to use it, therefore, you agree to the company's terms.

You do not need the company's approval to use software, nor should you. Do you need the approval of the manufacteror to stand on your chair to reach something on a high shelf?
Quote from: DominusTecum
In another thread, Marisa was telling all of us about her dog, and how if she didn't show it by the time it was a certain age, she was required by the contract she signed to have it neutered. She agreed to the contract, therefore she is obligated to neuter it if the situation ends up requiring it. I see this as the same way; you buy/download freely the software, and when you install it you are required to assent to an EULA (End User Liscense Agreement) to continue.

Note that even under current US law, EULAs are not enforceable. On the topic... At best, this simply means the companies are insisting on immoral terms. Would you find it at all acceptable if a chair producing company said that each person to sit on it needed to pay every single time they sat? I doubt it.
Quote from: DominusTecum
In this EULA, among other things, some of which are objectionable but nobody knows about because they don't read them, it probably says something to the effect that you have no rights to decompile, disassemble, reverse-engineer, or otherwise modify the source code or application which you are installing.

Except that you do have those rights and they cannot tell you otherwise. It is no better than a government overstepping its limited authority.
Quote from: DominusTecum
Therefore, since by accepting "yes" or "accept" or "I agree" on the EULA, you submitted to the contract,

A few issues:
- Those under 18 cannot participate in contracts
- There are ways to manually install a program without using the install application
Quote from: DominusTecum
and consequently have no rights to mess with them.

Rather, this should be phrased "and consequently have surrendered your rights to modify them."
Quote from: DominusTecum
If you used a hack of some kind to get around hitting "I accept," then you would still be forbidden from doing it because you didn't explicitly agree to the contract inherent in the software,

There is no contract inherent in any piece of information.
Quote from: DominusTecum
therefore your legal right to install and use it would be null and void,

You have a natural right to manipulate the information. The legal system can attempt to deny you this right, but it does so unjustly and outside of its limited authority. Such laws should not be obeyed.
Quote from: DominusTecum
and it would be essentially "stolen," even if you paid for the software.

The verb "steal" when applied to information relates to taking credit for something you have not done. You cannot use property-"steal" and apply it to non-property.
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AdoramusTeChriste
Dances with Chopper

Member

Posts: 5,677



« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2005, 08:31:PM »

I think it's time for a Snickers break! 

 

All this geek stuff is making my brain hurt.

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LukeDashJr
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2005, 08:35:PM »

Quote from: AdoramusTeChriste
I think it's time for a Snickers break!

I don't like Snickers. Keyboard Warrior
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MarysChild
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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2005, 08:35:PM »

Yummy. If I had a Snickers handy, I'd join you. *tries to stop salivating*

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
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