Weirdest Traditionalist website

[KyrieEleison]

The Jagiellons were Polish kings. The leaders of the country are also a part of the country.

Poland has very seldomly in history been 100% Polish or Catholic. We don't need Hitleric racial purity theories to have a nation.

Killing off an entire nation, even one as barbarian as the Prussians, is not assimilation. Yes, yes, the Poles and Germans assimilated by the Germans spreading dead Polish bodies over the fields in which they would later grow their crops. How sweet!

 

The Poles and the Pomeranians were allied together in one nation. The kings of Poland and the princes of Pomerania were usually brothers. The sad truth in Polish history is that the Germans simultaneously attacked Pomerania and Slask, so whenever Poland would win battles against the Germans in Pomerania, the Germans would go further into Slask. The whole German logic for destroying Poland is based on lies and is funny to most modern men. Do you know the reason? It was because Germans said that pagans had no right to sovereign lands and were free for the taking by Christian powers. Therefore, for this theory to be continuated the Germans had to lie to the Pope and tell Rome and Western Europe that the Poles were not yet fully converted from paganism. So, we can conclude that Germans had to lie in order to kill Poles. Thankfully, the Church has now firmly rejected Germanic theories of the Middle Ages.

 

Nowhere does it say that a country must only contain one ethnicity. If that was the case we couldn't have Canada, Belgium, and Russia existing today! To think about it, Russia has basically the same borders it had in 1650, yet no one cries about this "error'? I wonder why? 

Poland-Lithuania did touch the Black Sea! And when Poland-Lithuania-Czech lands- Hungary existed under the Jagiellon kings, we did touch the Adriatic in the 1400's. P-L had a reach to the Black Sea until the 1660's, when the Turks invaded Moldavia. Proof here. This is not crap.

 

I agree. But SEE again! READ again!

 

It was not Poland touching the Black Sea, but the Influence of the Jagiellons.

But you were talking about Poland and "we" clearly in reference to "we Polish".

 

And like with Prussia and the Adriatic, the Black Sea region was under Polish dominion, but not Polish in a ethnical way (since the 11th century Pomerania, Silesia and Prussia were colonized by the Germans, while the Baltic Prussians were assimilated by the Dutch-German farmers that cultivated Masuria etc.; before this these regions were Western-Slavonic - Wendish/Kaschubian - never Polish, though they were under Polish dominion since the 9th century).

 

A thing which is not known, is that Poland in 1939 when Nazi-Germany split up Czechoslovakia, annexed parts of Slovakia, because Poland already was very imperialist under Josef Beck.

 

Who would tolerate the French Kings claiming Ghent, Bruges, Western Flanders and parts of Eastern Flanders, today? Would the earlier empires justify nationalistic annexation.

 

Comparison cannot be made between the present Nation State borders and the old Royal borders.

 

Who would not attack an Italian extolling the borders of the Roman Empire and claiming them for restoration like Mussolini did?

 

So thanks for the maps, but I was not speaking about the Old Royal borders, but about ethnical Nation State borders.

[KyrieEleison]

Germans invented imperialism...

Where do you come up w/this nonsense?

Your accusations of Polish imperialism are truly laughable. You don't know about how persecuted Poles had been for many years.

1. I don't know if the Poles have engaged in imperialism or not, but the fact that they've been "persecuted" "for many years" does not mean that they never persecuted others.

2. What's w/the victim thing?  Do you really think it's good to present Poland as perpetual victims all the time?

The story is over 1000 years old.

German imperialism is based on many factors, of which the main one is that Germany's overcopied the Byzantine Empire and many of its decadent practices. Since the Byzantine influences weren't suppressed, Latin civilization wasn't allow to grow and mature fully in Germany. Because Latin civilization was persecuted in Germany, we got Protestantism, the furthering of Protestantism[cuius regni, cuius religio= your religion is the religion of your king] and Militarism as exemplified by Bismarck Germany.

 

1. If I said Poland did anything worthwhile, sander would scream "Polish fascistic communistic nationalist" so I keep quiet but Poland is truly great! How many nations can have 123 years of forced depolonisation and still remain Polish?

 

2.This is because of my debate with Sander. He is trying to prove that Germany is the victim of World War II and I am trying to show him how the Germans are not the victims but the victimizers.

 

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[InquisitorGeneralis]

Tomasz,
 
 None of that answered any of my questions. You still  did not show where you got the idea that Germans "invented"  imperialism. Furthermore, showing that Poles were victims does nothing to show that Germans were  not victims.  In actuality, some Germans were victims of WWII, and Sander is right for saying so.
 
  Furthermore, why do you continually insult Germany? There are plenty of  Catholics of German descent on this board -- I am grateful to be one of  them -- so why do you think you need to continue insulting us?
 
  Deutschland uber alles,
 
  Inquisitor Generalis

[HMiS]

Furthermore, why do you continually insult Germany?  There are plenty of Catholics of German descent on this board -- I am  grateful to be one of them -- so why do you think you need to continue  insulting us?

Deutschland uber alles,

Inquisitor Generalis

It is spelled "DeutSchland" however. You sure are a long time American German....haahaha!

Me  and Tomasz is always the same game: posting maps, but neither of us  believing the other's maps. Only my maps are larger in detail (pixels  and size that is...)...and from scientific sources... (Historischer  Weltatlas of Putziger e.g.)

I  am not an imperialist, and I never was. I was just trying to limit the  Polish pride of Tomasz, as pride is wrong, even national pride. We may  honour our countries, but not look away from the bad aspects. And  clearly the Polish cooperation (active!) in the expulsion of 11 million  ethnic Germans and "German citizens" (Kaszubs) was bad, it was evil.

No  less than 3 million of them died during the period of 1945-1949. Not  because they were given a business class flight with Air Polonia to  Western Berlin. Nope. On cattle transports in open wagons in winter.

But  of course it's just too easy to continue saying: "GREAT POLAND! POLAND  IS GREAT. F---- GERMANY! GREAT POLISH PEOPLE. ALWAYS HOLY, NEVER  SINFUL. LONG LIVE POLAND FROM THE RHINE TO THE URAL MOUNTAINS. EVER  LARGER POLAND!" Just forget that Polish have the possibility to sin  too. And that they did massively from 1945-1949. While under Pius XII  there were demands made from the Vatican to Polish bishops to not  support the expulsion, under Paul VI the Polish got their way and  created new dioceses. Remember that in annexated Silesian Breslau (now:  Wroclaw) Cardinal Bertram died of maltreatment in his episcopal see in  1946. Quickly the Polish occupied his empty chair. Fait accompli pour  Pape Pie. And Polish Jesuits cooperated in agitating against the  Germans, no matter whether they were Lutheran or Catholic. No, the  Polish Church played not a good role either. And they were never  punished by the Holy See. Wyczinski was a violent anti-German agitator  at some times, yet became a Cardinal. And the Cardinal from Hungaria  who protested the early expulsions after WW II in an immediate way,  Mindzenty, was let down by the Vatican after his spiritual martyrdom.

And  yet I praise Poland for its saints, for its great piety and zeal for  Our Lady and Our Lord, while ever remembering that Sw. Lipka in reality  is Heilige Linde, a German Roman Catholic shrine in Eastern Prussia.  But of course Polish and Germans should pray together. Ecce quam bonum  et jucundum est habitare fratres in unum! ("Habitare": living, Tomasz, NOT "segregare": separate. You never heard me justifying the Nazi Germanification policy in Wielkopolska Province!)

[KyrieEleison]

Tomasz,

None of that answered any of my questions. You still did not show where you got the idea that Germans "invented" imperialism. Furthermore, showing that Poles were victims does nothing to show that Germans were not victims. In actuality, some Germans were victims of WWII, and Sander is right for saying so.

Furthermore, why do you continually insult Germany? There are plenty of Catholics of German descent on this board -- I am grateful to be one of them -- so why do you think you need to continue insulting us?

Deutschland uber alles,

Inquisitor Generalis

The question is why do you think that I insult Germany all the time? I just state facts and tell you their consequences. Haven't you heard of the proverb "Contra factum non argumentum est"

[InquisitorGeneralis]

Tomasz,
 
  You state more than just facts.  You insult Germany at every  possible turn, and you know it.  I'm not going to play any games  w/you on this one.
 
 

[KyrieEleison]

More scientific! Well sir, my maps are more historical and accurate.

I love Poland, as I am bound by the 4th commandment, but I don't love it more than God or as the arrogant person loves his self.

The number is now 11 million Germans, I in the last year have seen you post 5 million and 3 million, while in reality it was only 1-2 million. Does the number of Germans exiled in 1945 keep on growing? 

Me and Tomasz is always the same game: posting maps, but neither of us believing the other's maps. Only my maps are larger in detail (pixels and size that is...)...and from scientific sources... (Historischer Weltatlas of Putziger e.g.)

I am not an imperialist, and I never was. I was just trying to limit the Polish pride of Tomasz, as pride is wrong, even national pride. We may honour our countries, but not look away from the bad aspects. And clearly the Polish cooperation (active!) in the expulsion of 11 million ethnic Germans and "German citizens" (Kaszubs) was bad, it was evil.

No less than 3 million of them died during the period of 1945-1949. Not because they were given a business class flight with Air Polonia to Western Berlin. Nope. On cattle transports in open wagons in winter.

But of course it's just too easy to continue saying: "GREAT POLAND! POLAND IS GREAT. F---- GERMANY! GREAT POLISH PEOPLE. ALWAYS HOLY, NEVER SINFUL. LONG LIVE POLAND FROM THE RHINE TO THE URAL MOUNTAINS. EVER LARGER POLAND!" Just forget that Polish have the possibility to sin too. And that they did massively from 1945-1949. While under Pius XII there were demands made from the Vatican to Polish bishops to not support the expulsion, under Paul VI the Polish got their way and created new dioceses. Remember that in annexated Silesian Breslau (now: Wroclaw) Cardinal Bertram died of maltreatment in his episcopal see in 1946. Quickly the Polish occupied his empty chair. Fait accompli pour Pape Pie. And Polish Jesuits cooperated in agitating against the Germans, no matter whether they were Lutheran or Catholic.

Firstly, Poles are much more cultured than to use such terrible words. Poland is Great but I have never and will never say that she is Immaculate. Never ever will I say Poland is immaculate.  NEVER!

Secondly, Poland has never had aspirations of such an empire from the Urals to the Rhine. We seriously don't care about the Rhine or the Urals, they aren't apparent in our view of a Polish nation. You should understand that Poles are not militaristic, name one Polish war of conquest, just one. Cardinal Bertram died in the Czech Republic at his summer residence. A Pole become the bishop of Wroclaw, just like Cardinal Bertram's consecrator was Cardinal Gyorg Kopp, obviously a Hungarian. So did the Hungarians also occupy the see of Vratislavia? Are you mixing 1920 with 1945 again? I love the Belarussian school of history, which says that it is Poland's fault for WW2 because we "took Galicia from the Austrians and Slask from the Germans" and that September 17, was the day of justice for Poland because WE attacked Soviet Union and Germany!!!!!! This is the version of history, comrade Lukashenko teaches in Europe's last full Stalinist republic.

BERTRAM, Adolf (1859-1945)

Birth. March 14, 1859, Hildesheim, Lower Saxony, Germany. Received the sacrament of confirmation, May 20, 1872.

Education. Seminary of Hildesheim, Hildesheim. University of Münich, Münich, 1879-1880; University of Innsbruck, 1881-1881; University of Würzburg, Würzburg (doctorate in theology, June 23, 1883); Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome (doctorate in canon law, June 30, 1884). Received the insignias of the clerical charcater, November 14, 1880; minor orders, February 27, 1881; subdiaconate, April 24, 1881; diaconate, April 26, 1881.

Priesthood. Ordained, July 31, 1881, Würzburg. Further studies, 1881-1884. Chaplain of the Teutonic College of S. Maria dell'Anima, Rome, 1881-1884. Pastoral work in Hildesheim, 1884-1905. Collaborator in the affairs of the episcopal curia and the vicariate general, 1884-1889; librarian of the cathedral, 1886; assessor of the vicariate general, 1889; vicar of the cathedral, 1893; canon of its cathedral chapter, 1894; counselor of the episcopal curia, 1898. Vicar general of Hildesheim, February 15, 1905; vicar capitular, December 19, 1905.

Episcopate. Elected bishop of Hildesheim by its chapter (1), April 26, 1906; received papal confirmation, June 12, 1906. Consecrated, August 15, 1906, Breslau, by Cardinal Györg Kopp, prince-bishop of Breslau. Elected bishop of Breslau by its cathedral chapter (2), May 27, 1914; confirmed by the pope, September 8, 1914. Member of Prussian Chamber of Lords, 1916.

Cardinalate. Created cardinal priest and reserved in pectore, December 4, 1916; published, December 5, 1919; received the red hat and the title of S. Agnese fuori le mura, December 18, 1919. Chairman of the Fulda Conference of Catholic Bishops, 1920-1945. Participated in the conclave of 1922. Promoted to archbishop when Breslau was elevated to metropolitan see, August 13, 1930. Participated in the conclave of 1939. Strongly opposed the Nazi regime.

Death. July 6, 1945, Johannesberg Castle in Jauernig (summer residence), then Czechoslovakia, now Czech Republic. Buried, cemetery of Jauernig; reburied in the metropolitan cathedral of Wroclaw, Poland (3), November 9, 1991.

Links. Biography, in German.

http://www.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios-b.htm

 

No, the Polish Church played not a good role either. And they were never punished by the Holy See. Wyczinski was a violent anti-German agitator at some times, yet became a Cardinal. And the Cardinal from Hungaria who protested the early expulsions after WW II in an immediate way, Mindzenty, was let down by the Vatican after his spiritual martyrdom.

And yet I praise Poland for its saints, for its great piety and zeal for Our Lady and Our Lord, while ever remembering that Sw. Lipka in reality is Heilige Linde, a German Roman Catholic shrine in Eastern Prussia. But of course Polish and Germans should pray together. Ecce quam bonum et jucundum est habitare fratres in unum! ("Habitare": living, Tomasz, NOT "segregare": separate. You never heard me justifying the Nazi Germanification policy in Wielkopolska Province!)

Firstly, the last name is WYSZYNSKI. Do you have to butcher the name anymore?

Secondly, in what way was Cardinal Wyszynski an antigerman? I know that he supported the antinazi Polish underground army and was one of their most outspoken chaplains, but is being antinazi, being antigerman? He became a bishop of the diocese of Lublin in 1946, which is on the Russian border, so how did he help the Germans' expulsion a year after the event and on the other side of the country?

 

Yes, Poland has wanted to live peacefully with the Germans, but have the Germans wanted to? I'm not saying that the Poles are perfect but Germans have many times offended the Polish people in our history. In 1235, the Synod of Leczyca, the Polish bishops declared that every confessor must be able to speak Polish and that all Catholic educators must be proficient in Polish but German priests came in, not wanting to learn, forced Polish peasants to learn German to confess their sins and understand the priests' instructions. The majority of German churches in Poland "assimilated" the population this way against the will of the bishops...... But that's only the early beginnings of this long Polo-Germanic affair....

[KyrieEleison]

Tomasz,

You state more than just facts.  You insult Germany at every possible turn, and you know it.  I'm not going to play any games w/you on this one.

Every historian analyses facts! Do you know how lacking most works would be if the author didn't analyze the facts and provide his own synthesis? Austrian monarchy and German-Prussianism are two completely different things.

[HMiS]

Firstly, the last name is WYSZYNSKI. Do you have to butcher the name anymore?

 

 

Sorry I have offended you by spelling this holy of holiest polish name incorrectly.

 

Secondly, in what way was Cardinal Wyszynski an antigerman?

 

He and especially Cardinal Hlond supported the creation of new dioceses, did not prevent Cardinal Bertram (of Breslau)'s death in 1946 (by isolation), did nothing to secure the rights of German Catholics. And Hlond rhetorically said: "I am not entering Gdansk [Danzig], until the last German has been kicked out!"

 

I never heard Our Lord saying that about Jerusalem or Sidon where Greeks and Samaritans lived among the Jews. 

 

So, yes, they were anti-German, and unfortunately most of the Polish Church was. Never, nay, never has John Paul II acknowledged the cruel treatment of Germans (of course the concentration camps had millions of deaths too): 3 million German CIVILIANS died while being deported "in a humane way" (to quote Potsdam Conference).

 

The German Cardinal Bertram - who was almost imprisoned by the Nazis - had since the 1920s (he was already a Cardinal during the fights around the Sankt Annaberg/ Gorá Sw. Anny) constantly pleaded in favour of the Polish minority in Poland and condemned all political activities of German priests in the Upper Silesian Referendum Region (Kattowitz/Katowice). Yet the Polish Church, notably the Polish Jesuits, were constantly agitating against Germans.

 

Let's stop. That history is far too cruel and destructive to be mentioned constantly. Polish priests with arms (assisted by Polish fanatic nationalists) killed Bavarian (=also Catholic) Freikorps members..... It was evil. Nothing less. (Catholics killing each other upon a shrine hill named after Our Blessed Mother's mother!)

 

Let's prevent such things from happening ever again. And acknowledge the Polish and German history. Accept that Silesia was a German region, like Prussia had become along with Pomeriana. And that they were violently purged of German presence after WW II.

 

[KyrieEleison]

No, I wrote that because wrong spellings of Polish names annoy me. Every time I see "Wojtyla" or "Wyszynski" spelled wrong, I become slightly annoyed, especially by people who act like they know something about Poland.

 

Cardinal Wyszynski not Hlond said that he won't enter Gdansk until the last German has left[not kicked out as you put your spin on everything]. He clearly  "Nie wejde do Gdanska az do kiedy ostatnie Niemiec odejdzie" odejdzie means leave not "gets kicked out".  You must understand the reasoning behind this statement, for we poor sinners are not always perfect and commit many sins, even good hierarchs. Cardinal Wyszynski was angry at Gdansk for it had fully supported the Third Reich's murderous reign, which killed millions of souls in a 5 year period. This is similar to how many bishops put interdicts on areas for their disobedience. But please remember that the Polish bishops forgave the Germans for the atrocities and they ALSO asked for forgiveness.

Although the forgiveness letter was written by liberals who quote Vatican II and its spirit even the conservative bishops like Wyszynski agreed to what it stated.

 

 

 

 

Firstly, the last name is WYSZYNSKI. Do you have to butcher the name anymore?

 

 

Sorry I have offended you by spelling this holy of holiest polish name incorrectly.

 

Secondly, in what way was Cardinal Wyszynski an antigerman?

 

He and especially Cardinal Hlond supported the creation of new dioceses, did not prevent Cardinal Bertram (of Breslau)'s death in 1946 (by isolation), did nothing to secure the rights of German Catholics. And Hlond rhetorically said: "I am not entering Gdansk [Danzig], until the last German has been kicked out!"

 

I never heard Our Lord saying that about Jerusalem or Sidon where Greeks and Samaritans lived among the Jews. 

 

So, yes, they were anti-German, and unfortunately most of the Polish Church was. Never, nay, never has John Paul II acknowledged the cruel treatment of Germans (of course the concentration camps had millions of deaths too): 3 million German CIVILIANS died while being deported "in a humane way" (to quote Potsdam Conference).

 

The German Cardinal Bertram - who was almost imprisoned by the Nazis - had since the 1920s (he was already a Cardinal during the fights around the Sankt Annaberg/ Gorá Sw. Anny) constantly pleaded in favour of the Polish minority in Poland and condemned all political activities of German priests in the Upper Silesian Referendum Region (Kattowitz/Katowice). Yet the Polish Church, notably the Polish Jesuits, were constantly agitating against Germans.

 

Let's stop. That history is far too cruel and destructive to be mentioned constantly. Polish priests with arms (assisted by Polish fanatic nationalists) killed Bavarian (=also Catholic) Freikorps members..... It was evil. Nothing less. (Catholics killing each other upon a shrine hill named after Our Blessed Mother's mother!)

 

Let's prevent such things from happening ever again. And acknowledge the Polish and German history. Accept that Silesia was a German region, like Prussia had become along with Pomeriana. And that they were violently purged of German presence after WW II.

"Polish fanatic nationalists" are also called Catholics in Poland and Pilsudcki was no Catholic Polish nationalist, as was the entire rightwing in Poland. Pilsudcki was a liberal socialist who advocated a Poland allied with Germany and Austria-Hungary, while the conservatives lead by Roman Dmowski, advocated better relations with [Czarist]Russia but these plans were thrown away after the October Revolution, so the Polish conservatives changed their position to the modern position of ABC[shorthand for Adriatic,Baltic,Black seas in Polish], which is for a confederation of nations to rule in Central Europe bounded by these seas.

I will acknowledge only the truth which is that Silesia is, was, and will be Polish! Have you ever heard the Silesian dialect written? Here's a good example of jokes in Silesian. See if you understand it and does it bear any similarity to German?

 

- Podobno jeich synek dosto³ z³y stopieñ z historii.
- A bo tym rechtorom to sie ju¿ w ³ebach poprzewraca³o... pytajom biedne dziecko ³o takie rzecy, kiere siê sta³y, kiej go jeszce na œwiecie nie by³o.


- Powiedz mi, ski¿ cego Pon Bóg stworzy³ kartofle?
- No toæ zwycajnie ski¿ tego, coby biedny c³owiek mio³ ty¿ kogo ze skóry ³obdzieraæ.


- Jak sie nazywosz?
- Nie wiem.
- No, a jak na ciebie w doma wo³aj¹?
- Œpiku, pódŸ ino sam!


Hanys przyszo³ ze szko³y do dom ca³y zaœlimtany.
- Có¿eœ to nabroi³, ty jancykryœcie? - pyto matka.
- Dyæ mie rechtór zepro³...
- A za có¿?
- Bo ino jo jedyn ³odpowiedzio³ na pytanie...
- Cego to? Przeca za to cie chyba pochwolili. A co ci sie spyto³?
- A dyæ spyto³ sie mnie, fto to wrazi³ ta ¿aba do ka³amorza.


Karlik przynosi ze szko³y do dom œwiadectwo. Matka cyto go:
- Pilnoœæ dobra, starannoœæ dobra, zachowanie z³e. S³uchej no, ty œpiku - pado oburzono - zachowanie ty¿ powinno byæ dobre!
- Ja? To¿ powiedzcie to, mamulko, rechtórowi. Jo przeca nie pisza œwiadectw.


Rechtór nakazuje dzieciom w szkole, ¿eby ile razy w domu zdarzy siê jako zaraŸliwa choroba, nie przychodzi³y do szko³y.
- Ma³o Maryjka Kopyciok nie przysz³a bez trzy dni do szko³y.
- Nasi muter byli chorzy - pado Maryjka.
- A czy by³a to zaraŸliwa choroba? - pyto rechtór.
- Nie wiem, ociec padaj¹, ¿ê to u nas jest chroniczne.
- Co ty padosz, a¿ chroniczne? A có¿ matce brakowa³o?
- No, ja to prawie nie wiem, ale za ko¿dym razem to momy potym w doma jedno dziecko wiêcej.


Ma³y zeflik przychodzi ze szko³y ca³y wymazany marasem.
- Ty jancykryœcie! Jak to zaœ wygl¹dosz? - padajom muterka.
- A mamuliczko, boch sie przewali³ do marasu!
- W tych nowych galotach!...
- No, dyæ takech gibko wylecio³, coch ju¿ nie móg³ galot seblec.


- Powiedz mi Gomó³a, jakbyœ post¹pi³, gdyby do przepe³nionego tramwaju, w którym siedzisz, wszed³ staruszek?
- Pedzio³bych: Nie ryjom sie sam, bo nie ma placu!...