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Author Topic: Concerning Sungenis and Vatican II  (Read 6257 times)
Sophia
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« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2005, 10:25:AM »

Quote

The "criteria" is only the criteria you set forth: saints who "indulged" in "habitual disobedience," and more specifically still, became the saints they were precisely because of that "habitual disobedience."

 

First of all, the terms in bold are not my terms. 

 

Disobedience to lawful authority is a sin- Whether it be a matter of disobedience to a parent, a magistrate, a king, a priest, a bishop, or a pope- unless to obey is to violate faith or morals.

 

There have been countless cases of saints cast into prison and/or put to death for resisting lawful authority.  The early martyrs did that all the time.  There are a whole host of saints for you.  How many girls disobeyed their fathers in refusing to marry when they had consecrated their virginity to God?  Some are found in the Canon of the Mass.  Was there a precedent before that from which they got their justification?  No.  That which guided them was the principle.

 

How many Catholics were put to death by the heretical bishops under Henry VIII or Elizabeth I?  They "habitually" disobeyed both church and temporal authority by refusing to attend the protestant services- which certainly weren't as bad as our present day N.O., and were most likely valid.  They went to horrible deaths rather than apostatize.

 

St. Joan of Arc during her trial refused to reveal certain things to the Inquisitors, even though commanded to do so, since a higher power had commanded her not to disclose them.  She repeatedly "disobeyed" them when she refused to admit her guilt.

 

What more do you want? Disobedience to a pope, yes I know.  If St. Paul and St. Athanasius are not enough for you, I doubt that anyone else I could scrounge up would be.

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lumengentleman
Member

Posts: 1,663


« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2005, 10:28:AM »

Quote from: MikeSolimanto
I think it gets too simplistic by saying one must be obedient or become like Luther.

Correct.  I am, however, groping for a principle here ... namely, that if Luther can open his bible and say to the pope, "you need to convince me that your teachings don't contradict my understanding of these texts," and be rightly condemned for giving priority to his private interpretation, then how do we escape similar condemnation just because the texts in our hands are the documents of Vatican II, not Sacred Scripture?

 

Quote from: MikeSolimanto
If the Pope has told us repeatedly that ecumenism is irrevocable, and the way of the Holy Spirit why do we fight it?

 

I don't.  I interpret "ecumenism" the way the Church has always interpreted it, and say let's get on with the irrevocable path of ecumenism - bringing everyone into the Catholic Church.

Quote from: MikeSolimanto
Are we prepared to say that sacramental theology is meaningless when we accept the Anaphora of Mari Addai without words of consecration?

 

That's a difficult subject.  I don't pretend to know the answer.  Thankfully, that declaration was not made by the pope in a solemn encyclical, nor was it part of the ecumenical council of Vatican II.

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Sophia
Guest
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2005, 10:37:AM »

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I think we can analyse VII and JPII as much as we want. The laity did not just come to these conclusions from rebel priests and Mahony like masses. It is time we admit that these errors came from the top and the counter-syllabus has done more damage to Catholicism probably more than any other movement.

 

And it isn't as if these conclusions are coming out of nowhere.  These modernist ideas have been trying to break their way into the Church for several centuries now, and have been repeatedly condemned along the way. What us simple folk (and not so simple folk, thank God) see is a spade, and we are calling it such.  So now that the smoke of Satan  has entered the Church, they can suddenly be excused?  When a pope speaks heresy, I have to defend it and assimilate it?  I don't want to be schizo, just yet, no thank you.

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Mark
Member

Gender: Male
Personality type: INFP/ENFP
Posts: 1,391



« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2005, 10:45:AM »

  I'm not unduly trying to extend this subject, and I couldn't say anything about "Habitual" disobedience, but insofar as an act of disobedience, I read that St. Patrick consecrated over 30 bishops, I think was the number, against the will of the Pope. The pope later on accepted them of course once the matter was was settled, but if I remember right St. Patrick's reasons were due to grave neccessity. Also, wouldn't have St. Athanasius have ordained priests while in exhile? -(I honestly ask this because I don't know and I am surely not trying to advocate disbedience)

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Mark
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Gender: Male
Personality type: INFP/ENFP
Posts: 1,391



« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2005, 10:59:AM »

Quote from: lumengentleman
 

Quote from: MikeSolimanto
I think it gets too simplistic by saying one must be obedient or become like Luther.

Correct.  I am, however, groping for a principle here ... namely, that if Luther can open his bible and say to the pope, "you need to convince me that your teachings don't contradict my understanding of these texts," and be rightly condemned for giving priority to his private interpretation, then how do we escape similar condemnation just because the texts in our hands are the documents of Vatican II, not Sacred Scripture?

 

But isn't there a difference between a teaching appararently contradicting one's own private interpretation/understanding as opposed to contradicting the Church's own previous intepretation? That is, what the tradition of the Church has always taught us concerning a matter.

 

Quote from: lumengentleman
I don't.  I interpret "ecumenism" the way the Church has always interpreted it, and say let's get on with the irrevocable path of ecumenism - bringing everyone into the Catholic Church.

 

The ecumenism of return, that's the way I act upon it too!

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VoxClamantis
Guest
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2005, 11:22:AM »

Quote from: lumengentleman
   

 

Can anyone show me from our 2,000 year-old tradition that there is such a thing as a "pastoral" council, or that a "pastoral" council does not require our assent?

 

Whether there's historical precedent or not, Vatican II was a "pastoral council" by having a pastoral purpose. From the Nota Praevia to Lumen Gentium:

A question has arisen regarding the precise theological note which should be attached to the doctrine that is set forth in the Schema de Ecclesia and is being put to a vote.

The Theological Commission has given the following response regarding the Modi that have to do with Chapter III of the de Ecclesia Schema: "As is self-evident, the Council's text must always be interpreted in accordance with the general rules that are known to all."

On this occasion the Theological Commission makes reference to its Declaration of March 6, 1964, the text of which we transcribe here:

"Taking conciliar custom into consideration and also the pastoral purpose of the present Council, the sacred Council defines as binding on the Church only those things in matters of faith and morals which it shall openly declare to be binding. The rest of the things which the sacred Council sets forth, inasmuch as they are the teaching of the Church's supreme magisterium, ought to be accepted and embraced by each and every one of Christ's faithful according to the mind of the sacred Council. The mind of the Council becomes known either from the matter treated or from its manner of speaking, in accordance with the norms of theological interpretation."

 
From the Council's opening address:

The salient point of this Council is not, therefore, a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.

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Because this whole approach really seems like doctrinal minimalism: I'll only believe it if it's been infallibly defined.

 

I don't think that's the case at all. We believe what's been infallibly defined and what's always been believed, but the rest falls under the merely authentic magisterium, which is owed religious assent -- but which can err and must be resisted if it leads to sin or unbelief.

 

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I'm pretty sure that even when the popes spoke "fallibly" and in a non-dogmatic way in the past, they still demanded assent, and any Catholic who would have tried to say, "Sorry, Your Holiness, you were speaking pastorally and not dogmatically, and I personally have come to the conclusion that what you said contradicts the faith, so I'm duty-bound to ignore you on this point," would have found himself outside the Church in a hurry.

 

It's not that pastoral decisions aren't owed assent. They are. Unless they lead to sin or unbelief, if they prove harmful to souls, etc.

 

Quote
I have a real problem saying that Vatican II "has no such authority" - especially when the documents bear the signature of a valid pope, and end with statements like, "We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God."

 

Vatican II had the authority to produce documents with passages marked by infallibility, but didn't choose to exercise it except where those documents repeat what's always been taught.

 

Quote
That sounds like juridical language; that sounds like the "binding and loosing" authority that Christ gave to His vicars.  I'm not sure how we can say that Vatican II lacks authority.  For that matter, Lumen Gentium explicitly addressed the issue of "non-dogmatic" teachings: "This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will." (LG, 25)

 

All Catholics agree with that. Unless what is spoken not ex cathedra harms the Faith.

 

Quote
For that matter, when Paul VI admitted that, "given the pastoral character of the Council, it has avoided any extraordinary pronouncements of dogmas, equipped with the note of infallibility," he immediately followed this statement by saying, "it has, however, given its instructions the authority of the Supreme Ordinary Magisterium (autorità del supremo magistero ordinario) ... and therefore must be received with docility and sincerity (docilmente e sinceramente) by all the faithful ..." (General Audience, 1/12/1966)

 

Unless it harms the Faith...

 

Quote
I would think that at the very least, something promulgated by the Supreme Ordinary Magisterium deserves to be given every benefit of the doubt by the lay-faithful; I would think that we would be more duty-bound to show how the council's teachings can (and must) be harmonized with Tradition than we would be duty-bound to consign them to irrelevancy and reach for Kant instead.

 

This is where we agree -- insofar that I think Sungenis is doing the right thing in trying to make the documents line up and is not going out of his way to nitpick and such. But IF the documents can't be made to line up, IF the typical interpretations of them lead to unbelief, harms souls, incites sin, etc., then they must be resisted.

 

 

Quote
 

I am not aware of even one Catholic who directly disobeyed the pope, and was later canonized.

 

Certainly some saints rebuked the pope (St. Paul, St. Catherine); others pleaded with the popes to change their minds, and were successful in doing so; others still suffered wrongly at the hands of popes (St. Athanasius); but I don't know of any saints who "indulged" in "habitual disobedience," and who for "this very fact of their disobedience" were made saints.

 

Not even one.

 

"Habitual disobedience," a "schismatic mentality," and such things are indeed dangerous. But disobedience itself is not necessarily habitual or a result of a schismatic mentality.

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Amadeus
Member

Posts: 267


« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2005, 11:29:AM »

I'm reaching my intelectual limit here. I haven't studied enough  philosophy (and nothing of theology, except my catechisms) to take on  heavy-weights like my friend Mike. But before anyone comes to me with:  "then all you've said is worthless; you don't know what you are  saying," let me clarify. My position now is that there are always two  sides to every coin. Hitherto, many of us have been ignoring the  apologists of the so-called neo-catholic world, and that is just not  right. We have become content with Pope-bashing and Council-bashing,  and not enough serious theological debate. My dear friends, we have to  engage in battle, we have to answer each of their claims in a truly  scholarly manner. Otherwise we will be found wanting. So between  hearing a lay theologian who trashes the Council, and an official theologian  who at least tries to interpret Vatican II in the light of Tradition,  I'll hear both, but not impartially for reasons now obvious to me. O.k.  now for a few other points.
 
 
Quote from: MikeSolimanto
First  of all I take nothing as an attack as I know you are good-intentioned  and OUR aim is the truth. So don't worry about "offending" me. As  Aristotle said, "I love Plato, but I love the truth more." If you  believe me to be incorrect I want you to say so, just keep it civil and  no name calling.
 
  Sure.
 
 
Quote
A contradiction is simply the following:
  Statement #1 states something exists (the cat is here)
  Statement #2 states something does not exist (the cat is not here)
  That's not an a priori judgement. I did not judge previously to the statements a priori, but a posteriori.
 
  Ah, but see, it would be a contradiction only if we knew for certain  that the propositions were intended to be taken in the same respect. So  to say "the cat is here" and "the cat is not here (if we look at it  from another perspective)" is not contradictory.
 
Quote from: MikeSolimanto
Quote from: Amadeus
That's  how we must approach the Council (and the Bible). You say "you"  have seen contradictions in the Council, but what do the many  theologians who've studied Vatican II have to say?
 
  Well that's who I talked to at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the  Faith, a theologian. I sat down right in his office in Santo Ufficio on  the second floor of the Vatican.
 
  Well, maybe he's like me. I am terrible at expressing myself orally, and not so much in writing.
 
Quote
Yes, they are that dumb
 
  All of them?
 
 
Quote
I don't understand the reference to this statement towards the  supposed validity of the Assyrian Orthodox rite without words of  Consecration. How can a priest act in persone Christi in nomine  Ecclesia without Christ's words? Why even have Our Lord period if all  you have to do is figure out why something works and can give salvation  and "soteriological value" to alternate realities other than God and  His Holy Church?
 
  My question was, how do you know there's no Consecration? What did Cardinal Ratzinger had to say about this?
   
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You  said to point to the theologians of Vatican II, and I can, they admit  it was a contradiction, and one such theologian named Ratzinger called  it a counter-Syllabus. Ratzinger did deal with this head-on, and said  it was against the teachings of Pius IX.
 
 
 Well,  the Pope continues to give support to the Council. So this assertion of  him must be seen within a context. I don't know what that context is,  but I am going to find out.
 
 
Quote
Also, if Robert Sungenis  was so good at hitting this head on why didn't he respond to me as he  always has in the past? I wanted to see how he answered his position  that civil rights do not mean moral rights.
 
 I've read  Sungenis' defence of Dignitatis Humanæ, and it's terrible. Fr.  Harrison, on the other hand, is more logical. His interpretation, if  I'm not mistaken, is that DH only affirmed the right to be immune from  government coercion when it comes to professing a religion.
 
I wish I could elaborate more on what I've said, but I have a deadline at work. See ya....

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MikeSolimanto
Guest
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2005, 11:31:AM »

Quote from: lumengentleman
 Correct. I am, however, groping for a principle here ... namely, that  if Luther can open his bible and say to the pope, "you need to convince  me that your teachings don't contradict my understanding of these  texts," and be rightly condemned for giving priority to his private  interpretation, then how do we escape similar condemnation just because  the texts in our hands are the documents of Vatican II, not Sacred  Scripture?
 
  Well there is a big difference between needing convincing against  contradictions and leaving the faith, a whole different story about  Catholics who uphold every dogma of the faith and deny many of the new  teachings and disciplines which contradict other statements.  Traditional Catholics who believe there are apparent contradictions  aren't promoting another morality as did Luther, nor another  ecclesiology other than the one we have always been taught. We are also  taught that our beliefs of previous ecclesiology was inadequate.
 
  As far as the "ecumenism of return" always taught, we cannot say  "always taught" because it's not taught at all. Accordingly Pope John  Paul II has said we must embrace the spirit of Assisi. Hence I live in  constant disobedience to such a decision. I also will not follow Ut  Unam Sint when it tells us to follow the Directory of Ecumenism because  I don't see how that follows the "ecumenism of return". We cannot say  it's the same ecumenism promoted by Pius XII. Do you really believe  their goals are the same and we have to follow the spirit of Assisi?  Otherwise we live in disobedience. Read article 16 of Ut Unam Sint, we  have to follow the new ecumenism, not that of return. I have documented  the articles of the document I cannot assent to because of blatant  contradictions in praxis.
 
 

Quote
That's  a difficult subject. I don't pretend to know the answer. Thankfully,  that declaration was not made by the pope in a solemn encyclical, nor  was it part of the ecumenical council of Vatican II.
 

 


  Not just encyclicals, but all decisions made by the Magisterium we must  assent to in the exterior forum. Read Tuas Libentur of Pius IX. So  while it may not have the weight of an encyclical it required exterior  submission to the teaching. I refuse to have my labotomy and find this  good and pleasing.
 

 


  When St. Vincent of Lerins told us that if a contagion was to spread  across the Church the best thing to do would be to stick with tradition  and keep the faith of our fathers. We are making the question of  obedience vs. the men who are openly destroying our faith with things  that do require at the very least exterior assent of the will. It's not  as if we are dealing with men who are honestly trying to save souls,  but an agenda which is vicious and wicked. These men have not withheld  their intention to "Raze the Bastions" and I will not pretend that  mental gymnastics to the contrary will make their intentions and  decrees vanish.
 

 
  When St. Paul exhorts us to expose those who teach wickedness I don't see why this is really a problem.
 
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Kephapaulos
Member

Posts: 2,786


« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2005, 12:08:PM »

[quote/MikeSolimanto]

Now Lumen is right in asserting this leaves a huge epistemological problem because the aspect of the Church is assenting to something in which we have certitude because of the guidance in faith and morals. This is no longer true and I doubt taken to it's logical conclusion Mr. Michaels really believes it (with all due respect to him because I know he is a good man).

[/QUOTE]

What did you mean here, Mike? Lumen Gentium was right and now it's not right? Is that what you were saying? If so, why?

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beerengr
Member

Posts: 4


« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2005, 12:55:PM »

Quote from: lumengentleman

No  matter that Lefebvre signed it??? How easily you toss this off! On the  one hand, Vatican II teaches material heresy and contradicts the  previous Magisterium; on the other hand, Lefebvre signed those  documents, thus giving his assent to material heresy, but this is no  problem.

 

That makes a lot of sense.


  One point. You are correct. Lefebvre did sign it, twice, in fact. He  signed it like all bishops at the reading of the doucment and that he  was present for the voting on the document. He did not sign the third  time, which was for approval of the document. Most every other document  is signed three times by every bishop present. Lefebvre did sign all  three times (and approved of) Sacroanctum Concilium.
 
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