OT Jews and salvation

[Archbishop_10K]

Did Jews of the Old Testament believe in salvation (going to heaven to be with God)?

 

I'm talking to someone who believes that Jews before the crucifixion of Christ could be saved. This guy says:

 

They do talk about the dead going to the Garden of Eden(for the good), then Gehenna(for the bad, but for no more than a year).

 

 

And I think something is very wrong with this picture. I'm currently of the understanding that Christ's teaching of salvation was "revolutionary": that the Pharisees and Sadducees of the time thought it was heretical that a mere mortal could ever dwell in God's heaven. The Jews instead believed that good Jews (and maybe good Noahides, I'm not sure) would go to limbo/Abraham's bosom, and the wicked would go to hell/gehenna.

 

Scripture and OT Tradition (if such a thing exists) would be appreciated.

[Alf]

I think the history channel said they go to sheol, where the righteous are left alone (but still separated from God), but the unrighteous are punished for their wrong doings. I could be wrong, though.

[mrb]

The Old Testament calls the realm of the dead Sheol, as Alf says. The Bible doesn't have a whole lot of description about Sheol, but it seems to regard the fate for both righteous and unrighteous dead to be the same.

Later Jews did indeed expand on this concept and believed that the dead could go to heaven or Eden, but this concept isn't found in the Old Testament. Whether the Pharisees had developed this concept as of Jesus's time I honestly don't know. Places to look to find out would be non-canonical Jewish works like 1 Enoch. Or the Mishnah, but of course that wasn't written for a couple centuries after Jesus.

I'll post some scripture references to Sheol momentarily.

[mrb]

Sigh... Unfortunately I can't figure out how to get my Bible software to search for Sheol without finding all occurances of the name Saul also (they're the same consonants in Hebrew...). So I have to weed out the Sauls manually.

By the way, one thing I've found that's interesting to see is how different Bible translations translate Sheol. The KJV consistently translates it as "grave" when it's talking about a good guy going to Sheol, and as "hell" when it's talking about a bad guy going to Sheol. I personally find this very annoying.

Anyway, Sheol is in these verses:
Gen 37:35, Gen 42:38, Gen 44:29, Gen 44:31, Num 16:30, Num 16:33, Deut 32:22, 1 Sam 2:6, 1 Kings 2:6, 1 Kings 2:9, Is 5:14, Is 14:9, Is 14:11, Is 14:15, Is 28:15, Is 28:18, Is 38:10, Is 38:18, Is 57:9, Ezek 31:15. (Plus quite a few more.)

See that, for instance, Jacob goes to Sheol (Gen 37:35) and Korah's people are punished by being swallowed up by the earth and taken alive to Sheol (Num 16:33).

[julieruble]

It's true that in the OT, the dead were described as descending to Sheol.  It has always been my impression that once Christ died, He paid for the past sins the Jews had sacrificed for, splitting the temple veil, and opening the gate (so to speak) for the righteous Jews (who were saved by faith in God's promises) to go to Heaven.  This is why Matthew 27:52 says, after Christ's death, "The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life."

So I don't believe that Jews before Christ went to Heaven.  But I think that's different from what you're asking, which is, did they have a concept of heaven and hell.  I think the only view I've really seen of something similar is when they reference the afterlife in I & II Maccabees, and I recommend looking through it. I forget specific references; I will try to find some and see if they're worth quoting on this subject

PS -- I'm not a trad Catholic, but I think I saw another post where someone agreed with this view.  Correct me if this isn't what Catholics' believe as well.

[kjvail]

The sadducees didn't believe in an immortal soul, so I guess for them the whole question was moot.
 
 
 

[MauricePinay]

Did Jews of the Old Testament believe in salvation (going to heaven to be with God)?

 

I'm talking to someone who believes that Jews before the crucifixion of Christ could be saved. This guy says:

 

Quote:

They do talk about the dead going to the Garden of Eden(for the good), then Gehenna(for the bad, but for no more than a year).

 

 

"In the development of Jewish eschatology which marks the post-Exilic epoch the word paradise or "Garden of God", hitherto mainly associated with the original dwelling-place of our first parents, was transferred to signify the future abode of rest and enjoyment which was to be the reward of the righteous after death."

 

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14519a.htm

 

This changed later on. Kjvail has stated that the Sadducees did not believe in life after death. This can be seen in the Gospels where they Sadducees tempted Christ with the puzzle of the woman widowed and remarried seven times. (Mark 12;19-27)

 

The Pharisees did believe in resurrection.

 

Rabbinic Judaism is a whole other confusing issue. For instance, many Orthodox "Jews" profess belief in reincarnation which they call, "Gilgulim."

 

It's true that in the OT, the dead were described as descending to Sheol. It has always been my impression that once Christ died, He paid for the past sins the Jews had sacrificed for, splitting the temple veil, and opening the gate (so to speak) for the righteous Jews (who were saved by faith in God's promises) to go to Heaven.

 

 

According to Church Fathers both the just and the damned went to sheol which was limbo prior to Christ's sacrifice. Sheol, hell, and limbo were interchangeable terms. Prior to Christ's sacrifice, He descended into hell (sheol), to release the just. After Christ's ascension hell (gehenna) was known only as a place for the damned. And the just go to heaven, perhaps with a stay in purgatory preceding.

[Archbishop_10K]

Thanks, M. Pinay.

When I say "OT Jews", I don't mean the various heretical sects like Pharisees and Sadducees, but those who had an orthodox understanding of God. The "Catholics before Christ", whom we could consider our predecessors.

 

According to Church Fathers both the just and the damned went to sheol which was limbo prior to Christ's sacrifice. Sheol, hell, and limbo were interchangeable terms. Prior to Christ's sacrifice, He descended into hell (sheol), to release the just. After Christ's ascension hell (gehenna) was known only as a place for the damned. And the just go to heaven, perhaps with a stay in purgatory preceding.

 

This is my understanding of it. I just needed some sources to cite.

[julieruble]

According to Church Fathers both the just and the damned went to sheol which was limbo prior to Christ's sacrifice. Sheol, hell, and limbo were interchangeable terms. Prior to Christ's sacrifice, He descended into hell (sheol), to release the just. After Christ's ascension hell (gehenna) was known only as a place for the damned. And the just go to heaven, perhaps with a stay in purgatory preceding.

 

Gotcha.  Thanks.  This is my understanding of it as well, except no purgatory (obviously). 

 

One thing I don't understand is the term "limbo."  I'm going to see if Vox's site has more about this.  I've always heard this in terms of "When you die, you don't go to Heaven/(Purgatory?) until Christ returns.  In the meantime, you're soul is just in limbo" (which is not something I believe).  Is this the limbo you mean, though? 

[DominusTecum]

There are two "limbos." (or maybe one, that is only used for one purpose now.) The first is the "limbus patrum," the limbo of the Patriarchs. This is where all of those went who were later saved after Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, the righteous OT Jews. Now, it is of course "empty," because all of the righteous have gone to Heaven. Limbo now is referred to as the "limbo of the infants." It is a place of perfect subjective happiness, but deprived of the beautific vision of God, where all the infants who died without baptism, but before they committed any actual sins in the world, go. (They can't go to heaven because they are still stained with original sin, but they can't go to Hell, because they didn't commit any sins of their own.) Catholic teaching on Purgatory/Heaven/Hell is basically that if you die in a state of grace, you'll go to Heaven, eventually. If you die not in a state of grace, you go to Hell. Purgatory comes in for those who died in a state of grace, because we've sinned and offended God, and he needs to be repaid for these sins.

 

I have an analogy here that might illustrate. A kid is playing baseball and he breaks his neighbor's window. Now, the neighbor (God) is a good natured chap, and will of course forgive the boy. He's not going to hate him forever. (He's not going to Hell.) However, the neighbor still logically requires the boy to pay for the window he broke.

 

This is Purgatory. You either pay for the window on Earth, with suffering, mortification, and indulgences, or you pay for it after you die, if you die in a state of Grace, by means of Purgatory. It is much easier and more pleasant to "pay the debts" on Earth.